Truth About Making Money as a Creator w/ Shoshannah.

I don't know if it's just a New Zealand thing or abroad, but a lot of people aren't very good at paying content creators because they don't have to. I'd be better to get a job that pays money and then just buy the stuff that I want myself. >> Where are most of your audience from? Do you know have like a demographic? >> The majority is New Zealand. Got quite a few America, Canada, some European. I have them around the world. Merry's just renewed their contract. Icebreers just started a contract. my first year working with ice breakers, Canada and America especially. That's where everyone comments and says, "What about all the beers? What about the mountain lines?" And I'm like, "Bro, we don't have them here."

>> So, I'm going to get you to do me a favor right at the beginning. And I'm going to get you to tell me pronounce your name properly. >> Shana. >> Okay. So, it's just as it looks as it reads. Shoana. >> Shana. Not Hannah. Like everyone calls me. All my messages start with, "Hi, Hannah." And I'm like, where does that come from? >> Yeah. No. Well, that's that's what I wanted to ask at the beginning because I I I wasn't sure the vow sound. I was going to say, but then shana is great to know because that is >> Yeah, some people go shana. But it's funny. I think a lot of it's just how you pronounce it really. Like depends because it's Hebrew,

so it depends if you go like the correct way or like however we say it's just whatever goes really. >> Yeah. No, that's good. I just, you know, it's probably better than me halfway through the podcast start calling it the wrong name. It's okay. >> Totally. It's okay. I'll correct you. It's fine. >> Yeah. I love it. Perfect. Please do. Please do. Hey, look. Um, first of all, as before we get into it, uh, what do you know about the podcast so far? What any do you know anything? >> Absolutely nothing. I had a quick browse on Instagram and I was like, that looks fun. And, uh, I'm not I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I listen to mostly audio books. I grew

up on the same I um >> I I listen to hardly any podcast. I probably listen to like two a year maybe if I'm lucky. But then I'll listen to like a book a week on Audible. >> Well, I'm the same with YouTube. I don't watch YouTube videos yet. I make them. I'm like, "Hey, watch this." But I won't watch it. It's too long and boring, but people seem to like it. >> Some is right. You know, there's an audience for everything. Right. >> Well, that's it. Just because you do something doesn't mean that you have to consume the same thing, does it? >> Yeah. Um well this podcast is um to like it's targeted for I often talk to creators or other business owners

who potentially are using their brand to grow their business or TV radio personalities depending. It's usually about people who are somewhat in the public eye and have used that brand image to create a life for themselves somehow. >> There's a lot of people like that. >> Yeah. You know there's a lot of people like that. There's a lot of people who like are trying to >> um do more of it as well. You know, there's a lot like it's >> interesting because I talk to people about it and like I talk about my social media and the things I do on there and they're like, "Oh, that's cool. I should start doing it and earn lots of money." And I was like, "Bro, I'm 5

years down the track now and like, yeah, I'm like earning, but I'm not. You don't get rich off it." >> No, we're not. >> We're not millionaires. We're not millionaires. You work just as hard as anyone else. I think the biggest pros of working doing social media stuff is that you can do it flexibly. >> Yeah. >> And you know, every time I go some like I go people like, "How do you go tramping all the time?" I'm like, "Well, I go tramping. It's a work trip. I I work with brands, I get products, I promote them when I'm there, you know, like everything's a work expense." >> I love that. I love it. And look, you know what? We're just going to roll into

this and Amy's going to figure out how to edit this later on an intro. Um, but that's exactly what we talking about. It's like it's not as easy as people think and and in your particular situation, the way you've done it, you've almost done it the hardest of anyone the way that you have sort of built it, but also from the outside it looks like that. And so I actually my first question actually is like >> tell me a little bit about that journey because like solo parent in the beginning doing it the way that you were doing this like this kind of been easy when you first started this brand like >> No, I didn't even know what I was doing though. Like I

literally just fell into it and winged it. But I have ADHD, so that's probably contributing to the fact that I don't like I just jumped straight in without even thinking about it. And if I'd gone in with an idea and more structure, I probably would have been more successful a lot earlier, but it's taken a long time to build up to that now. I mean, back back at the beginning, it was nothing. But I think when you've got a when you have a platform, it's and you've got a following, businesses and stuff love throwing free stuff at you. And at first I was like, "This is great." And then eventually it became a lot of work because I was like, "Oh, this is great free

stuff." But sometimes it's stuff that you don't need and then you have so much and it doesn't pay the bills. So then I turned it around and now I make money off it and work like work with the businesses that I really want to work with instead of just being like, "Yeah, sure. I'll accept this or that." >> Yeah, >> it's a lot of navigating. >> How hard to navigate >> journey did that take? Like how many years in were you before you made that switch from like, "No, I really need to find brands I can work with and get them to pay me money." >> Uh, I think it's been a gradual process. um working part-time and I think that's why I'm like social

media is hard to work fulltime like full-time unless you throw everything into it but I uh before I think around the same time as starting social media I started getting into photography and I trained myself up taught myself everything I needed to know and that's been a great income to fall back on and I also have p a Patreon blog which brings in subscription every month and That's probably been the most consistent thing going. Uh even then it was still only I guess part-time, but a bit here and a bit there goes a long way. So I think maybe when I when I really started bringing stuff in was probably oh let's think maybe 3 years ago. So I've been doing it for a good

couple of years. I didn't know what I was doing. My content wasn't amazing. I could have done a lot better, but again it's budget. you have to spend a lot of money to make money and I didn't have the best gear and I also was trying to learn how to make the content and also navigating mom life for the first time and all of that. So, I think I was kind of drowning under all of that stuff first while trying to figure everything out and then it took me um it was probably two years ago that I really started getting in the flow of things and making a full-time income. >> Yeah. And so, you're at that point now like you're making a full-time income

off it now that or you feel comfortable uh like part-time to full full-time. I think I had I also like I manage other people's social media for them and I think that is a much e like a better way to make income off it because you businesses have the like the financials and they need it. So that's so that's been a better way to go. I think that's what I've been trying to figure out where where the best way to go and where the best things to earn the money from. Yeah, there's lots of >> Yeah, so I do a combination. I have a Patreon subscription and then I do paid advertising on my own platform. Sometimes people pay me to take their photos. I

think the biggest thing is it's not always super consistent. Sometimes you have heaps of work. Sometimes you have nothing. Around Christmas, right up until Christmas, you can get lots of brand deals as the brands want to push everything and then it dies off for a couple of months. >> Yeah, makes sense. Same in our world. Um >> Yeah. of the seasons, right? So, so that's kind of interesting. So, you've got not just like, you know, typical creator income of being like Patreon and brand deals, but you're actually like selling a service like a professional service to people in terms of social media management or like content creation as well. >> Yeah. So, when I started turning towards that, I think that's a really much better

way to man monetize it. But I think when you it's hard. The hardest thing is calculating when you're charging by the hour is calculating how many hours you're actually doing because I think you end up clocking up more than you realize because it's really time consuming. And I guess because I have that time I if we're at the park with the kids I can be on my phone editing or posting stuff that needs to be posted. uh if I'm lying in bed with a toddler and cuddling her to sleep, I'm on my phone editing and posting and you know that's so I I think it's cuz I have the time to work around the kids but I think it's still I'm in between part-time to

full-time at the moment you know like like that teetering that teetering spot. >> Yeah, that is interesting. Um you talk about like how much to price and and hourly and whatnot. I think we see that a lot with young creatives and freelancers and like creatives that uh how do you how do you get the work one more consistent but also like get the value that you actually provide like what's the value to the business and whatnot. So in your experience has that always just been trying to work out what your hourly rate is trying to estimate a number of hours you might do for the work and then just like kind of pitch that as the price and then kind of make sure you can

do it in that time frame. Yeah, because there's a lot to calculate into it. Like if I'm charging for the content that I'm posting on my own platform, businesses are ch are paying for my audience to see their stuff. So that's to do with engagement, following. I recently just ticked over 90k on Instagram, which means that I think you can generally charge a little more because a lot of businesses look at the following, but I think it's a lot more to do with the engagement because if you don't have an engaged audience, what's the point? Yeah, 100%. >> But I have had people say like when I've tried to pitch myself, they were like, "Oh, sorry. We won't we don't work. We don't pay creators

that have under this many followers." And I was like, I don't think they should be looking at the following count. I think they should be more looking at the engagement rates. >> That's interesting. So that's like that was their like direct response. We just don't pay under 70. >> They had a cut off. They said um they said 70k and they wouldn't pay me for under 70k. And I said, "Ah, I kind of come back with, "I'm sorry. I don't have the time to work for free." >> Yeah. >> Which is which is exactly straight to the point. Like I was like, you know, I'd love to work with you, but I don't have the capacity to work for free because it takes away from

paid work. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. That is that is quite crazy that the brands will say that especially these days where like micro influencers the 10 to 20k range are like super valuable for a brand because like >> I think those ones are probably like super valuable but the higher up you go the more like following the better like businesses want to work with you but at the same time >> uh it's it's just hard to jal it >> and so you are self-managing all of it on your own. Yeah, it's a lot. I often I'm like, oh, I'd like to be able to outsource some things, but then I promise if I outsource and then I have to pay them, then I have

to add that into the budget. And >> have has have any talent managers ever approached you to manage your brand for you like or help you with the brand deal side of it? I have asked um I've inquired over to get some assistance to like help manage my own stuff, but they were like, "Oh, it looks like you've already got enough like brand deals, so you look like you're fine on your own. We can't do anything for you." And I was like, "Oh, I feel like they could do stuff for me." I think if I'd had someone to help manage me, it would have I would have been able to get so much better deals cuz I find it hard negotiating with brands and setting

the price. And I think I've often undercharged myself severely. Yeah, >> I should have been charging a lot more for the content that I gave them and that's learning experience from that's just learning. Just learning. >> Yeah, I think I think in those situations it's all um a little bit of like give and take when it comes to brands. Like sometimes you might charge a little bit less. Sometimes you might get a better end of the deal because you know your content might be super easy to create in that particular instance and it took you no time at all. >> So some wins and losses. I think um it's quite interesting that a brand like yours cuz like you know I've got your Instagram open

just here and I was looking at it like >> yes >> you are like your average viewership compared to the number of followers you got is like pretty close there's like a really close alignment like a lot of >> which which just speaks to one the content's obviously resonating and that the engagement's there. Um, I'm surprised that more talent agents haven't reached out like because it's hardly any work your inbox for you and negotiate deals on your behalf. >> Um, >> yeah, because that would be amazing. That's exactly what I need, but I haven't been able to get it. I'm not sure if I'm not like asking in the right places or >> Yeah. I wonder if we just need to um clip this out

and tell talent managers who are watching like to get in touch with you because >> Yeah, Derek, get in touch. Yeah, there'll be a talent agent out there who's like, "Yeah, capacity to take someone there." There there's obviously um talent agencies just can't always pick people up because there's obviously still time that they have to put into it. But like when you've gotten >> a particular talent who's got an engaged audience and is consistently putting out content, that's like kind of the dream scenario, especially when it's like um you've got a niche that's easy to identify, you know, like but you're out. >> It's very strong. Yeah. Yeah. >> Which is funny because I've gone I've found the niche the niche thing has been really

hard because I have ADHD. My brain goes in a hundred different directions and I have to constantly pull myself back in. But I think I found my like main passion which is obviously like the outdoors. But with my recent health issues, not getting outdoors as much, I had a bit of a crisis cuz I was like, "Oh, what do I do if I'm not like hiking, tramping?" But I managed to, this is where so many people talk about B-roll, and I was like, I've got so much in the archives that I've actually been creating content without going on any trips recently, and people think I'm still tramping, but I'm not >> uh because I've just had so much footage to reshare. And I've had a

post recently got like what, 15,000 likes on it, and it just went off. And I was just like, "Oh, wow." Like I didn't even have to go anywhere until now. I was like going on trips all the time cuz I was like you got to do that make the content. I was like actually you can shoot a lot of content and you don't have to go on trips all the time but you can make people think that you are which they do cuz they were like oh wow that's great you're out hiking again. I was like now I haven't hiked in 3 months like on a proper like big track. >> Yeah that's funny. Yeah I guess they only see what you want them to

see right and you can tell them whatever as long as you still tell a story in the content then it'll still perform well. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's I think the thing I get a lot um I mean I've been figuring it out. It's like how do you grow your audience and stuff and people going on on about it and some people get really annoyed and they're like I've had some interesting comments from people that I knew that were like oh well why do you get so many followers and all this other stuff and I was like because I have given them something valuable. >> People don't follow you for pretty pictures or like for your personal life stories unless it's insanely inspirational.

People follow you for what you can give to them because it's all about what you can do for them. >> Oh yeah, for sure. And look like just to press on that like some people are being able to live vicariously through others is value. >> There is a lot of >> that's what I get a lot is people like they're like I'm not even into tramping but I love watching what you do. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's like um it reminds me my partner, my wife and I years ago uh well we still do occasionally but um we like got really hooked in on the Bucket List family and just >> Oh, I follow them too. They were they were fun. >> They were awesome.

I mean these days are like it's almost a little bit too polished. But I love them. Like they're still amazing like than what they and especially the early day videos like when they trying to was a little bit different. They you know they had a lot of money behind them when they went off and did stuff. I think that's the that's one thing is the money like to get started in things. It's hard starting because I'm thinking of oh I'd love to get a GoPro. I'd love to get a drone. >> Yeah. >> And but those things all cost money and I've had other things to pay for and so I all my stuff I mostly get by on my phone and of course I

have my camera cuz I do photography and love to upgrade that but that's one of the hardest things with creating content is you need the gear. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can get by without it, but it's more more challenging, >> especially on like your sort of location based filming and stuff like gear does help you capture things that you couldn't otherwise capture on a phone, right? Just like being able to sort of tools like 360 cameras or drones or all these things that can do cool stuff. >> Yeah. And I've seen those and people have said to me, they're like, "Oh, why don't you get one of these to like film your stuff?" And I was like, "Oh, a GoPro like on a

long stick would be amazing. Like I think I could make so many more like YouTube videos if I took the GoPro along to film all the YouTube on. But of course I don't have the financial capacity right now to be investing in it because I've had to prioritize, you know, other things like bills cuz we live in New Zealand, you know. >> Exactly. >> And the price of everything just keeps going up. So, and so it's uh things get things take priority. >> Yeah. I I think it's like a real humbling thing for people to hear because like you got a pretty successful brand like from the outlook like when you're looking from the outside looking in it's a pretty successful brand that you've built

on Instagram and >> on your socials in general and like the engagement that you're getting but for for you to also say yeah but like I can't just go out and buy a camera where like I need to still be able to do it regardless with what I've got and you've been able to do it with what you got. Whereas a lot of people actually sit there going, I can't even start cuz I don't have the camera. But you've been able to >> I mean having good quality stuff makes a difference. Um like I make sure that I do have a phone that has higher quality, but I've managed to get by on just have you know I just shoot on the I think it's

iPhone 16 at the moment. But I probably wouldn't upgrade the one I have now for a few like not until it's needed. I just use it and use it >> for as long as possible because you don't need to be constantly upgrading. You can make do cuz it's a >> it's also to do with the quality of the actual content that you're putting out there. And having good having good pictures and videos is definitely helpful cuz it's captivating. But a lot of it comes down to having good lighting. For example, right now I've I'm sitting back here. If I was sitting in my office, the background is all ugly cuz I'm packing tramping. So I've got stuff everywhere. So, >> uh, specifically chose an aesthetic

background and yeah, it's not 100% realistic, but it does it's eye capturing, you know. >> Yeah, >> you have to have a good you have to have a good background, good lighting. And that's the common mistake that so many people make when they record stuff is they like they're not facing the light. They've got the light behind them and it just doesn't look good. >> No. Exactly. Yeah. 100%. It's funny cuz like in this setup that we have, this is where I always do my online ones. I have like this big light here, but it just blew the other day and like yeah is probably gonna tell me off later because I haven't got a light on me and so I'm just orange right now

because like rather than like properly >> well the bricks behind you are also orange so that doesn't >> exactly right. So at least with a light like it can like frame me up the right color and then do the difference in the background. But you're right, like it makes such a difference to um to what it is that you don't actually necessarily need the best camera if you've done all the other things right. But I guess the point I was trying to make is >> what I really admire about what you've done is like now that I know actually because I didn't know it from watching your content that like you the phone and your camera that you just like >> yeah it'd be nice

to have all the good gear but actually you don't have to wait till you've got that to start. Just go start learn how to tell a story first. >> Yeah. And this well the storytelling is a lot of it. Like um my big camera is heavy and recently I've stopped taking it tramping with me because as a it's an extra 2 kgs and I'm trying really hard to cut the weight down to make life happier cuz my toddler is like 12 kgs and I have to carry her and all the gear for three of us. I'm interested to see how I go on this tramping trip tomorrow because this is the first time I've gone since being out of hospital and I'm so desperately trying

to keep the weight down because I'm not sure how I'm going to go. But anyways, I was like, "No, I'm not going to take the camera, but I really want to because I could get such great photos, but also you have to." But I'm like, I have to focus more on the storytelling side of things this time because it's, you know, it's more about the story, but it's easier for me just to take the phone and use that. >> Yeah. >> And the phones do take pretty good footage these days. Like all my YouTube videos are all shot on my phone. >> And sometimes when it comes to working with brands, sometimes they're okay with phone stuff. Like it depends on what they're wanting, but

if they're wanting like professional photos, then I'd use my camera. But if they are wanting to be like mentioned or have their products seen in the post, then it's actually you can use your phone. Actually, you don't need a lot of big fancy equipment. Sometimes the brands just want to be noticed. >> Yeah, that's it. Exactly. No, I love that. I just wanted to ask a couple questions around like in your Instagram profile for instance you've got >> Icebreaker and um Miral whatever it's called >> tagged in like tell me about those are those partnerships that you've had ambassadors like tell me about that scenario why have you got them tagged in your bio how's that >> uh because I because they're long-term partnerships uh

I'm ambassadoring for them so that's that is one of the best things to do I think when you're doing contenting is to get a long-term partnership because then they work with you've got a I've got a contract with them for a year and then uh Merryill's just renewed their contract. Icebreers just started a contract. So, this is my first year working with Icebreaker. So, they're asking me to put out a um content for them on my platform and do that. And I put them in my bio because I'm ambassadoring for them and that's who I'm I think it's kind of I guess my sponsors. >> Yeah, >> I guess um like a sports team puts their sponsors on their um stuff I guess something like

that. But yeah, Mural Powers or I get messages from people asking me all the time. They're like, "Oh, what shoes do you recommend for hiking?" And I was like, "Well, I work with Merryill, so I'm probably I am biased cuz I work with them and we use all their shoes." And I I do genuinely like their shoes and Icebreaker is amazing. Marino, like I wear their stuff all the time. It's so nice. So, I was stoked to get those uh partnerships. But I guess they noticed the stuff that we were doing. And I went on a hike a few months ago with Icebreer, a community event they put on, which was awesome. So they took me along and we went with a group of just

outdoorsy people. We went on a group hike together and that was a lot of fun. >> Yeah, that's awesome. That's really cool because like I >> the reason I asked is that you don't often see that with influencers and creators. And I actually I assumed that's what it was. I assumed it was ambassadorship. >> And I love that because >> it's a smarter way of doing brand deals. And I actually wonder if that's the reason why some of the talent agencies may have gone, "Oh, look, there's not a lot we can do because you've got two strong brand things that >> Well, I haven't I only had those ones recently. So, this was before I had those ones, but I had shown them the ones

that I'd worked with previously. But I think my biggest problem was previously I found it really hard, I think, with the pricing and trying to negotiate pricing because I would sometimes if I really wanted to work with someone, I'll just be like, "Oh, I don't want to scare them off by saying, "Oh, these are my rates." And they'll just be like, "Nah." Because I wanted the product and I loved the product. And so, there was times in the past where I was like, "Yep, I'll do it for the product." But I learned to set my terms. So, I said, "Okay, I'll do this much." Uh, now the only things I would promote for free would be posting on my stories and I would do I

offer them like an unboxing where I just put a video up from my stories unboxing the product and then maybe saying trying it if I like it and then I say look if you want any more then it's going to cost such and such and open to negotiation obviously and there has to be flexibility because it really depends on you know like you negotiate right you come back and forth but that's only something I've learned how to do recently and I'm still not very good at it. I still think I undercharge myself a little bit too much. >> But then again, it depends on which companies you're working for cuz some of the bigger companies, you know, they've got the financial backing to sponsor you.

Whereas the small like really little companies, they don't have as much uh finances for the advertising. So you you have to have a little bit of leeway, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. I like let's break that down a little bit. Like you don't have to give me actual figures if you don't want to and definitely don't give me anything that obviously you've contractually done already but like >> I'd love to know how you think about pricing like how like is there a scenario you can break down of like if I was a small if I was a business coming to you saying hey I'd like to get you to make some videos with our product inside of it or reviewing it or whatever however your style

of content is. How do you think about pricing that like like just do the math with me. How do you break that down? I think about if I really want to do it and if I like the product. So, sometimes they send me the product and I will actually try it. If it's like food or something, I'll try it before I review it. >> Yeah. >> Uh it's a bit awkward if you say, "No, I don't really like this." And I have had that happen before where someone sent me a product and it was faulty and I think I might have got a little bit scammed a little bit cuz they disappeared pretty quick. Um well, I could have anyways. Um, but I said I

had to say, "I'm sorry, I can't promote this because it doesn't actually work and I've tried to use it and then they sent me a replacement and the replacement didn't work." So, that was doesn't happen very often. >> Yeah. >> Um, what was the question? I forgot. >> Just like how would you start to have that thought process of charging them? Like what is it that you assess? How do you start to go I think I should charge them this much? What does that process look like for you? >> So, I start Yeah. So, I start off with I really like the business. Um, sometimes it might be a little bit 50/50, but I won't work with someone if it doesn't align with me. Like

I've had, oh, was it a gambling one? And I was like, I'm not I'm not interested in promoting gambling. I'm not going to do that. Uh, so I was like, straight up, no. Or was it one of those ones from like Teemo? And I was like, no, I can't promote that cuz I'm all about sustainability. So, it does not align with my brand at all. >> And so, I first of all, I thinned that out. And so, a lot of the time I just say, "Sorry, that's just not something I'm interested But then I look at the time that it's going to take. I calculate travel what they're wanting. If it's a tight turnound, so often sometimes you'll get them when they're like, "Oh, we

need this content within 2 weeks." And I'm like, "Okay, well then I have to think about, do I have a trip that I'm going on? Can I coordinate it in? Depending on how much effort I have to go to, I calculate the fuel costs and if you go on to Google, you can actually Google how many how much can I earn if I have this much following with average engagement and it actually comes up with the uh different price brackets which is helpful. So I think around my following you can charge upwards of a grand >> um up to maybe a grand maybe up to three or four grand depending on the content >> is that what you're think >> per uh yes so that's

per video I think it's slightly less per post and then usually stories are included in that so they might get five to 10 stories I have um I have different so I send them like my media kit and it's broken down with different pricing options, but it's negotiable if they want to negotiate that further. The media kit has been really helpful since I started using that. That's when I've actually started earning money from it because I just say, "Hey, that's great. Here's my media kit. It's got about me. It's got my social medias, Tik Tok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube stats. It's got um my prices. It's got brands I've worked with and reviews from brands as well." >> So, that has been really helpful. Uh, and

that has been the biggest help cuz I just send it to them and then it's done and dust it and they come back to me and they say, "Oh, look, how about this price?" And then I go back to them and if I'm okay with it, then I'm like, "Yep, sure." Otherwise, then I'll be like, "No." So, that's my process. Do you have um when you set your pricing, is it like one price for the whole like gig or do you have like a here's for the each piece of content or the piece of content, here's my hard expenses like travel cost. Is that a thing you add additional or do you kind of build it all in? >> I calculate it all in. So

I go on to the higher end to calculate in travel costs and all those other things into the whole thing. >> Yeah. uh instead of breaking it down. And then that's why there's a bit of negotiable leeway. And one thing I've learned with businesses is when they come to you with uh price, there's usually give. So they if they want to work with you, there's usually enough that they can go a little bit higher, but they'll always start low. >> Yeah. >> So it's interesting, isn't it? I think it's a it's a bit of a game. >> Yeah. I um one one thing I've learned in our business over time like so just a little context is that like with our business we obviously work

with we run the social media for lot a bunch of brands and stuff right and so >> I I learned over time was that I used to think just inclusive including it all was the better way because it's just easier for the clients and whatnot what I realized is that >> actually um they think of the different costs differently like they think of travel as hard separate to the content content creation cost. Now, >> lots of brands will still go, "Okay, we don't have the money for it all." But at least you can say, "Okay, but I just need you to know these are hard costs of mine. So, I can't just reduce this fee down to zero because otherwise I'm making no money off

of it. Like, I need you to understand these are hard costs." And actually, I like So, I used to be like you, like when I first started, I used to always just I'll just try to build it in and if I I win some, I lose some and whatever. And then I had the advice given to me by a client who was like, "Stan, tell us what your hard costs are. I can't have you lose money on this because I need you to stay profitable because I need you to work with us into the future." >> And so they said, "Tell us your hard cost because that for us is different. There's a different cost to what we're paying for that. We actually need you

to go do this thing in this location. >> So we have to have And so in your case, it's like >> you could say to them, okay, if you want me to go do this specific thing for you in this time frame, then I'm going to have to charge you these hard costs. However, I have a a trip booked in a month and I can build it into that trip which is slightly different because I'm going anyway. So therefore, I can have some reduction in my hard cost on you. There's no hard costs. There's now just production cost on the trip I'm already doing. >> Yeah, that's actually a really good point. >> Yeah, >> it's hard. I think the hardest thing especially with me

not having a very mathematical brain is having to do the calculations, especially when you have mom brain sleep deprived and so it's been the easiest is just to lump it into one. But I can see the logic in putting it into different like breaking it all out cuz I know that when I get a quote, if I'm asking someone to do a job for me and they send me the quote, it's it is good seeing the breakdown where they say this is how much for this for the hours and it's this many hours, then of course I have to then I got to think about an hourly rate which is also the >> another thing right there. Right. Cuz where do you where do you

start with that? I I I actually don't think in your world an hourly rate is the right way to do it for um a lot of work like even in work even in your any social media management work alley rates are quite tough like they're better I mean the social media management depends if you're just like doing like quite task based stuff that just does take a certain amount of time as opposed to any certain special skill set like soon as you start to sell a craft or a special skill like the valuebased pricing needs to start to come into where it's like what is this? How what's the value of this piece of work to you as opposed to my time? We we only

sort of do that for our clients like >> um these days. I mean actually since I started I never went into alley based pricing and whenever a client asked me for like a rate card for alley pricing they're always like quite like crazy outrage outrageous alley rates mostly just to deter them from like going down that path. And the reason I'd say that to them is I'm like, I'm not trying to rip you off here. I'm just trying to tell you that like >> there's more value in me having a client on retainer. >> Um that I can consistently know this money's coming in every month >> and so way easier. There's way less work in the background trying to figure this all out if

I do it that way than it is if I have to work for you. There's so much admin involved in that and so much work that have to do. I'm charging you these hourly rates because that's actually encompassing not just the work I do for you, but all the work that goes around it to support the work that I do for you. >> Yeah, it's a really good point there because I think that's why I value the long-term partnerships and why I give long-term partnerships a discount. Well, discount over one-offs because the one-off campaigns are is a lot more to it. Whereas, I really I love working with the long-term. Like having Icebreaker and Mural is amazing. They're brands I love and it's consistent every

month, you know, like it's coming in every month and that's more valuable even and you often you do spend a lot more and this is why when people think social media is easy money. I'm like it's not. It's a lot more work but I love it. Like creating stuff is I love creating and running um now that I've started managing like other people's social media for them. I quite enjoy that too actually cuz sometimes I think I'd post too much on my own platform if I'm in the role and it's easier for me to post on like another one. And I mean I've put in countless hours. I dread to add it all up. But you you're right there where you can't add you can't

just add up all the hours cuz it just wouldn't make sense. I think sometimes when someone was like, "Oh, how much do you earn an hour?" And I'm like, "Probably like $5 an hour." >> And they're like, "That's below minimum wage." I'm like, "Oh, I know." >> Yeah. But it's true though because we're just starting the social media. I have poured hundreds of hours in like you know like five this five years down the track and I've spent may like well over 2 hours every single like most every single one of those days. Now when I go tramping I've gotten into a real swing of it if I'm making vlogs. I edit the content when I'm at the hut and then when I come home

I have all the content edited ready to go. >> Oh that's awesome. That's that cuz when I'm tramping, I've got so much time. There's no distractions. >> Yeah. >> So, I learned how to do that on my last was it five? I did a fiveday trick. So, I did I filmed YouTube and Instagram videos for each day of the five days. So, each night I would spend an hour before I went to sleep editing the videos with no distractions because there was no internet. >> Yeah, I love that. give me a little breakdown of like you don't have to get me into specifics because of obviously I understand how like contracts with brands work but something like with um say Mirill or or um Icebreaker.

What what does a contract look like? Is it a um a fixed fee for a month worth of activity? Is it like you pay per thing? Like how do you what's the structure of the deal? Rather than give me the specifics, but just like how >> So they would have uh Yeah. So, they would give me like, "Oh, this is what we want from you each month." >> And uh often with brands, especially ones like that, they'll have very specific things that you can't and can say because obviously it's their reputation. So, you have to be very careful about what you say or do. But a lot of it's common sense. Like, you know, you don't defame them and >> yeah, >> make swearing slurs,

you know, all common sense really, I think. And it's not hard to do, but it's something to be mindful of. So, you've got the expectations every month and um sometimes it's pretty lowkey. >> Yeah. >> Uh sometimes it's real relaxed and other times they've got specific things that they want this much every time. >> And are you charging them on like a fixed monthly fee or is it per piece of content? Like how do you price like they're giving the numbers like how do you charge them? Um I think they uh they've appro like often with those kind of things they've approached me with the pricing and I would look at that I'll be like okay yep >> that's totally fine to me. I don't

see any point negotiating. But people like that I think can be quite good at being really fair. >> Yeah. >> Especially when they're used to working with creators. Um, some can be really difficult to work with because especially I don't know if it's just a New Zealand thing or abroad, but a lot of people aren't very good at paying content creators because they don't have to cuz there's so many low-key ones. I've had ones where they were like, oh, I would love for you to be an affiliate. And I was like, I don't want to be affiliate because I have you're expecting all this. And I've said that to one before like I would have loved to work with them cuz I would have used

their stuff all the time. But I said to them, they wanted all this stuff for free. and in exchange for ah we'll just give you this stuff for your stuff and I was just like no that's not worth it because I'm I would I'd be better to get a job that pays money and then just buy the stuff that I want myself. >> Yeah, I think affiliates are a hard one to do it on because uh I'm not a >> affiliates are very difficult those ones. >> Yeah, I'm not a big fan of them. I think one of the reasons it's similar reasons why we don't like when clients ask us like hey you think you're good at marketing well why don't you take a

percentage of sales that you generate and it's like well doesn't really work like that like I could someone could see a piece of content that you make for a particular brand but they might then go and Google it and then have a read into it and do some other stuff but they never actually go through your link or anything so it never gets >> see I've had some I've had a lot of success through affiliates but >> just saying that there could be other ways Yeah, >> definitely other ways, but I think it's stuff that I was already I think I started out with a lot more affiliates. >> Yeah. >> Um I think these days I'm moving a lot. Like it's it's changed a

lot, but I've had depends on what kind I mean affiliates just kind of feel like a multi-level marketing scam, >> but sometimes it can be like I think sometimes it can be really good. Um, it's also if something is more costy and you're getting a percentage of sales, you can get more kickback, but it's definitely a lot more work than it's like you're definitely working a lot more for a lot less. >> Yeah. >> So, that's me, too, is that >> it's pocket money, but it doesn't pay the bills. That's how I look at them. >> No, exactly. Like, I think that in the affiliate world, I think you can definitely make money in affiliates. Like, I've known heaps of people who have done it

really well. I just think that like one of the when people when brands want you to earn su from a success metric like if you can generate the sales through your content then we'll pay you for it. Yeah, in those instances we there we do have a couple deals like this with our clients where I said okay well I don't want sales and I want equity >> like give me like if you're going to make me go and promote your brand for free then I want to own a part of the business and I want some value there because I always think like the affiliate stuff it's like um you're right like I could I I won't I will make some money >> but it's

not as much as I could have made doing something else for someone else who understands like the the the actual uh economics of like putting out brand content and that because people can go off my page and go search for your product elsewhere and still buy it or they might see it for first time on me with me and then they've seen it a second time somewhere else but they buy it through that channel >> capture all the things that I've actually started the conversation for you. I think if you have a discount code to give your followers, it can be good for the businesses to see that people are using it and wanting to buy and that's good. But I think if you're getting

a percentage, it doesn't like it's just pocket money. It's not >> it's you don't get it's not near enough. And I think if I uh so I have like a whole I think I've got like a whole page of discount codes that I've had with brands and it is like I just have them all on my I think on my highlights somewhere which is good but I you can't invest too much energy into it because it doesn't pay the bills >> exactly >> but I think it's sometimes it is like good if you've got brands that you have that you like and then I have a lot of people being like oh have you got a code to use for this product and they love

people love getting a discount so if they get like 10% off they're stoked. Yeah. Yeah. >> I think there's there's pros and cons to it, but I'm not like I don't love it as much. >> Yeah, I think there's pros and cons, and I definitely think when you're smaller creator, affiliate codes are a good way to prove also um your ability to convert. I think they're really good to show a brand. It's like, look, I might be small, but look how many people I sent through this affiliate code for this particular campaign I ran. I think >> but if you have like if you have 4,000 followers and a thousand of those followers are heavily engaged and they all use your code. That's a thousand

people. >> Yeah, that's a lot. >> Yeah. >> I don't I don't think a thousand people would have used my like one code through one business. >> No way. Exactly. So tell me um you know what is the future for this? Like how do you continue to do this? Obviously your life's changed a lot since you started uh and things but like how how do you see this world playing out? Where does it go from here? >> Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that recently. I like I would love to I think as things change, my kids are growing up a little bit and we're not um doing I'm doing a lot more stuff without them and a lot of it was around oh

I'm taking my kids out hiking and people like oh well that's so cool. Um but now I've like because I've got a support system, I've got my parents, I've got other people around, I'm having opportunities to do things without the kids and I it's an interesting thing. I was like, where do I go from here? Like, what do I do when the kids aren't around as much? And like, do I have anything to still offer? And I think I do. I've got my story and I've got I still will keep sharing stuff. And I think I'm not sure exactly where like where it goes from here, but I have some big I've got some big dreams and ideas. I've got some big walks that I

want to do. I've got international travel that I love, but I've been really really focusing this year on honing down, trying to build up the business, trying to >> get better. just get better really. I think just work on improving and getting better partnerships then I have some better financial backing to do things like go overseas. But I think a lot of myself started with oh look I'm I'm dirt well not what's the right words I would say oh look at me I'm on a very tight budget and I've managed to do all these things and I think it's it does change a bit when you get if you get more if you are better off financially then you can afford to do more things

it kind of changes it a bit because for a lot of my audience who are following me for my super budget tips a lot of it might not be as budget but I think I'm I'm never going to be a super bougie traveler because I'll always be on like a reasonable budget because why spend hundreds of money here when I could save money and do more things cuz that's my logic. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And actually just as you're saying that something came to mind, I mean take this with a grain of salt but um first of all where are most of your audience from? Do you know have like a demographic where they >> uh majority is New Zealand? I've got

quite a few America, Canada, some European. I've had I have them around the world. I think the biggest percentage is New Zealand, but I do have a reasonably good percentage from around the world as well. >> Maybe some Canad Canada and America especially. >> Yeah, I would. >> But I think that's >> that's where everyone comments and says, "What about all the beers? What about the mountain lines?" And I'm like, "Bro, we don't have them here." >> That's a real common thing. >> That's funny. That's so funny. I was actually thinking that Americans and can Canadians might have been a large portion of it. And I was just thinking like I've I've met a few like sort of quote unquote like sort of travel or

like lifestyle kind of influencers who work who are in similar spaces around have a niche around something that's not the norm life. Right. And >> yeah, >> one of the um things that they did from a monetization perspective that was real successful is they just did like two or three um guided tours with people. I've seen people doing those >> like really simple but like Americans especially like coming to New Zealand and want to do a hike with someone they know as like a guided tour. >> Yeah. >> They have the co the hike cost or the trip cost is one fee and then they you know they charge like two or threek per person on top for being the tour >> and they just

take a small group because they don't want to get it to be too crazy. like you know you couples who come on a tour with you and all of a sudden you just made like 12 or 24 grand for this one trip on as profit. Now, don't I'm just throwing numbers there. Take a great salt. But like, >> yeah, >> that's also something that's quite cool because then you can like engage this audience who's like, "Man, I'd love I love what you're doing." It's like, "Well, why don't you guys guys come to New Zealand, do this hike with me, build it up for a few months." >> I'm always trying to get my American friends to come over like, "Come over and we'll go hiking.

We'll go do some trips together." That's other content creators. But >> yeah, but >> I get a lot I get a lot of people here in New Zealand actually. I get a lot of people um the other thing I've been asked about recently was doing um like in person like locally doing uh like talks. >> Oh yeah. >> Um or like teaching I know teaching people how to go hiking tramping and I thought that might be interesting. So I might investigate that a little bit more to see how that kind of goes but I'm not sure if that's a big investment thing. Um workshop that's what it's called workshops. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think that might be quite fun cuz it's more impersonalized and

more. But the travel thing, I've seen quite a few people doing the tours. Um I have been asked to do one like a while ago, but I wasn't in the right place to do that. But they could be a real interesting thing to do, especially um I've had so many people here. They I get it a lot. People always ask they're like, "Oh, I just want to go hiking with you." And D. And I was like, that would be like, it's not that I don't want to go with them, but when you're having like I'm one person and there's 90,000 of them. >> And I was like, I can't spend my whole life like just going on walks with like all these different people. And

I think it's because they see me do it. So then they're like, oh, I want to go with you. Um, but especially I think if they have children, it's a bit tricky cuz I I don't have the capacity to be looking after people. They have to be looking after themselves. So we go tramping with friends, but we look I look after myself. They look after themselves. I can't be looking after someone who doesn't know what they're doing. I try to that's why I create content. I'm like I try to share as much as possible to help people get outdoors and to get out and do it, but I can only do so much. >> Yeah. I wonder if it's like um you know I'm just

thinking I know the guys at like Wild Kiwi for instance and it's like you're partnering with like a travel agency, a travel brand. >> Yeah, that would be the dream. That would be like because I see he goes to some really cool places but he's got an amazing partnership with GoPro that's been going on for a long time. >> Yeah. So Oh, no. I was thinking um no that this particular is a company called >> Oh, not Wild Kiwi. So, I was thinking beer Kiwi. >> Yeah. No, no, Wild Kiwi is a is a is a company, right? And it's like I just just saw first one comes to mind because I know the guys. >> Oh, I don't know if I've seen Wild. I

have to look at that. >> Yeah. They they do a lot of like solo um to be honest, their perfect demographic is solo female international travelers of New Zealand. So, they're international have come to New Zealand, you know, UK. >> That's a pretty good one. That that's pretty good niche. >> Yeah. And that's pretty similar, you know, like they're probably like quite aligned in terms of solo travelers doing stuff, but like they >> Yes. >> they, you know, you partner for an agency like that or like a brand where they actually have guides with them. You're just kind of the celebrity on the trail with them, but they actually have their own guide who take care of it all. So, you don't have all the

health and safety concerns and all that. >> I think we did that when we um did this guided the walk with Icebreaker. They had a company like a a guide like guides from a company like do it >> y >> and then we all like went along and that's I think that's probably the best way to do it >> maybe is that way because I'm I can't take people out on my own. There's too much liability like what if they got hurt or >> Yeah. You don't want to take on all that risk especially if >> but like um I should email you later. I know the owners of Wild Kiwi, they might be keen on um on partnering with someone, but like because it's

a win, if you think about it from their perspective, they sell the tour. They pay you a portion of every ticket because you're helping sell it >> um as well. And yeah, >> already have the systems and everything set up to do it. They're just selling another tour that they always this is bread and butter for them. But for you, it's like, >> you know, they can probably they can probably host a larger scope of people as well. Like they the wild Kiwi guys bus that they take around. So like they could >> Oh no, I have seen those buses. I was trying to think where I've seen that. I was like that sounds real familiar. No, I've seen those tour buses. Same as like

the cont ones, right? Like the you see the I see the cont ones floating around. Those are a bit wild. Those ones. >> Those are a little bit more wild than the low key ones. Well lowkey ones are like >> people who are like they are like a lot of like nature driven to a thing. >> Yeah, that probably sounds like more my thing cuz I'm not a never been hard into party or anything like that. I like I like to get sleep. I'm like a I like to go to bed early and wake up late. That's my dream. >> Love it. >> I'm a middle of the day person. >> I love it. I love it. Well, I should put you in touch with

the guys down there because you know >> Yeah. >> No, I'd be super keen for that. Yeah, absolutely. >> Hey, we've um it's been almost an hour now. So, um yeah, I'm going to start to wrap it up, but I like it's been real interesting hearing your story. Like, thank you for being so open about how you've built and monetized the brand because like um I think there's lots of valuable stuff. We have a lot of creators and people who are in the same field as you >> who watch this podcast and I always think it's a real difficult conversation that I know a lot of creators have with each other and >> yeah it's tricky to talk about because some you can't talk about

specific figures without getting too personal and I I get a lot of comments on my content saying how do you afford this and I just say well I'm content creator. It's more complicated than that. >> Yeah. But it's hard to and I'm a very open book, but I it's hard to share it without being too open because you have to really protect your own personal >> Yeah. >> your personal stuff. And it is a tricky one. In New Zealand, I think a lot of people like I didn't realize this. Apparently, it's rude to ask people how much they earn. >> And I said to someone, I was like, "How much do you earn a year?" Like I was just interested. But then you find out

what job they have and then you just Google it. And how much does a builder earn per year if they have been doing it for 5 years? people do find it New Zealand are very humble in their willingness to talk about which is why I said thank you for like you did give me specific >> about how you thought about it and a lot of people struggle with that so I think it' be super helpful I'm always open to talk about it like I um I didn't realize that talking about money was so taboo as it was when I started this journey >> well I had no idea like I I'm I'm quite open about things but I've become more closed because problem is when

you tell people things and they sometimes they treat you a little differently or they um or they're like oh you know like it is I can kind of understand it but it's yeah it's complicated right >> it is complicated it is and I think um the conversation needs to be having more that's why standing actually exists just to open up those conversations and some people can I think you end up getting to a point in your creative career where um you can talk about your aggregate number so how much you made in a year like there's a few creators who have some of the bigger ones who have said you know like I'm now doing in the six figures I a few hundredk a year,

but they're lucky. >> I've seen those. It blows my mind that people make so much because I mean I make enough. I make enough to get by, but not that much. And I'm like >> always just to keep building, like just to keep pumping out the content. Like the winner now that you've seen that you don't have to be on hike to or to make content. >> I think just like continuously putting it out. Um the biggest creators like like Louis Davis who who just he does a hundred million views just on Instagram trials every month. He does some great Does he do trial reels? >> Yeah. >> Ah, interesting. >> Are you doing no trial reels? >> No, I do. I actually I started

repurposing my old content and reposting stuff through trial reels. But um he does some Oh, that's the guy with three kids and his wife goes to games. Yeah, I follow them both and they do some great like he's got a but you can see that same with um that other girl. I can't remember her name. Um, but you can see how they I think that's when some people have asked me like, "Oh, how do you grow on social media stuff?" I'm like, "Well, you find people like that. You look at them, you see what they're doing. Clearly, the audience is captivated because they're doing something interesting >> and engaging." And I think that's the that's the thing, right? You have to put content out there

that people want to see. >> Yeah. That's it. >> And by putting content out there, you can see how well it does and then you know if people want to see it or not. If it doesn't do well, clearly people don't care about it. >> Yep. Learn from it. That's That's the brutal truth. >> Yeah. >> I've been putting out That's why I've been putting out all the trial reels cuz I like, well, if it does well on trial reels to strangers, then you know it's good content and if not then clearly it's not good. >> Exactly. >> And that's just the fact of it. Sometimes your content's just going to be not good. >> That's it. That's what I tell everyone. Sometimes it's just

crap and then uh you just do again. Just learn from it and move on. >> Yeah. Exactly. Well, you learn a lot and goodness. Look at how far I've come. Goodness me. My videos at the beginning were terrible. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I could have But you learn, right? Like I've learned a lot. And if I had learned how much stuff back then, I probably would have been a lot more successful, a lot quicker, but I had other things to do. >> Yeah. No, it's great. Well, hey, look, thank you so much for your time today. It's been awesome to hear. I really love it. I really like hearing the story of how you building this like business on your own like just with no

help essentially. Just figured it out and just did it and just worked it out. >> I honestly don't even know how with how well I function. Like I don't even know how. But no, thanks. It's been really interesting talking. >> Yeah. No, thank you. And like honestly any anything in the future if there's any tips or helps or anything you want like please reach out. Always happy to uh talk. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast and uh yeah appreciate it. >> Awesome. Well, thank you very much. That was great.