Should Kids Be Banned from Social Media? w/ Richie Hardcore.

people like, "Okay, so when did hardcore become your brand name?" And it didn't. Hardcore is a style of music that I'm really passionate about, right? When I was like 27, I thought, "Oh, change my name to Richie Hardcore." Legally, >> when I say controversial, you just have to say something that a a significant portion of the population will disagree with polarizing, galvanizing, controversial. Like, I don't want to do any crimes, bro. You know, I don't believe in banning social media. Social media has got lots of benefits. They still know that it's not good for under 16y olds. I'm not saying you should never use it. Just wait till you're developmentally equipped to use it. >> Should kids under 16 be allowed to use social media?

That's the debate going on in New Zealand at the moment. Australia has already made some laws. And today's guest, Richie Hardcore, is a believer that it should happen actually. And today's conversation that we had was quite a good one. Like it was one where we had a debate about it, but in a reasonable manner. My view is the opposite to him. But I think we have the same goal which is to keep people safe online. If you want to listen to this, tune in and hope you enjoy the the podcast that started. If anyone's watching this, so we're already rolling that this is what I want to talk about is I want to talk about that journey for you actually. like I want to understand

a little bit like I've seen your story and I've seen um that journey that you've been on and I kind of want to know like you you just said um I did all the stuff first and then I built a brand off of it or you built a brand later is kind of the way you think of it in your head. >> Well to be honest with you I've never intentionally built a brand. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like >> that's interesting to me. Yeah. Explain that a little bit. >> Yeah. So people like Okay. So when did Hardcore become your brand name? Yeah. >> And it didn't like uh hardcore is a style of music that I'm really passionate about, right? >> And when

I was like 27, I thought, "Oh, change my name to Richie Hardcore legally cuz that'll be cool, you know?" Like, >> and I didn't think I'm going to be like 45 talking about like pornography as a social issue, right? >> Yeah. >> But yeah, so all my stuff kind of is is just kind of who I am, I suppose. Yeah. And as I've gotten older, I've had to try and figure out how do I actually separate who I am and my family and being a human being from like my business. >> Yeah. >> Because >> what I've learned is that when people attack your ideas or your business, it really hurts you as a person. You know what I mean? >> And actually those two

are separate things, right? that people should be able to critique or criticize or just dislike >> your public >> and then that should be a little bit divorced or a lot divorced from your private, right? >> Yeah. >> But yeah, I grew up listening to this like aggressive punk >> influenced metal influenced hardcore and uh >> my first public sort of platform was a radio show on 95 BFM >> and it was called Vivilla Hardcore. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it was like I did not know that. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was like it was like a late night radio show. >> Okay. >> And um >> you know bands from America would come and we'd interview them and >> eventually like BFM were like

oh you know like do you want to do an earlier show and an earlier show >> and so I'd do like uh like a 1 to four and then I had a drive show for quite a while like a 4 to 7 like sort of prime time slot and then >> sometimes like uh I'd fill in on the breakfast show once in a while. I mean this is going back a long time. I haven't done radio for a long time >> and um yeah just like hardcore was the name of the first show I did and then it became my ring name as a Muay Thai fighter and those two things were happening simultaneously. >> Got it. >> And then people kind of were like

oh it's that hardcore guy or do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> And in Muay Thai like people just call you your fight name. >> Yeah. >> So I've got friends whose nickname is like rebel or psycho or you know you know >> and like it's kind of normal within that that that community. Yep. >> And so my boys was like, "Yo, what's up, >> Hardcore?" >> And then it just became a thing, right? And then social media came along. >> Um >> cuz I'm of I'm old enough that we didn't have like Facebook and Instagram. Deon didn't have Tik Tok. We had message boards, you know, >> 100%. >> And that's that is where I would start sharing my evolving opinions and

education around things that are now my work. >> Yeah. >> But this is going back like when I was like 19, 20, 21. You're talking to people in America and England about punk bands and hardcore bands and then >> a political conversation would evolve because those scenes are politicized. >> And um yeah, that all kind of just grew and grew, >> you know. >> Yeah. Interesting. It's interesting. Um I find that interesting like the the natural evolution of a brand especially one like okay it's kind of funny that like I just think that's a cool name. It'll be cool to have Hardcore as the piece of it. That's kind of both funny but awesome story but it is kind of interesting to watch how that

brand grows naturally. So when you're doing that like is there no >> is there any part of that situation where you realized like did you think of yourself as a personality or a person of a brand? I mean you might not have said brand but you might have had another term. >> Um not really like uh flying by your pants. >> It wasn't until Yeah. It's all just been flying by and like making heaps of mistakes. >> Yeah. Yeah. or like saying a stupid thing on the internet or having an opinion that people don't like. >> Yeah. >> Or misconrue or misinterpret. >> And actually, it wasn't until I was getting like piled on Twitter when it was Twitter for the first time ever. >>

Yeah. Okay. >> And it was really affecting my mental health and I felt really overwhelmed and I was like, "What is this? This is horrible." >> Where a really well-known New Zealander messaged me and was like, "Don't worry about it. It just means that you've crossed over into the mainstream consciousness. Like people know who you are now >> and they don't know. They know your name, but they don't know your story or what you do or what you what your what your education is or any of these sorts of things. They've seen this one like fragment. >> Yeah. >> And then they're going to make commentary about that, right? That's just how it is, particularly in a small country. Yeah. >> And that was like

the beginning of like, oh, >> oh, I do have a public like profile of some degree, right? >> Yeah. But I always say like New Zealand is so small like being famous in New Zealand is like being famous in high school, right? >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Like I don't I would you know I am definitely not a household name. No. >> Right. Like I have niche knowledge that people know me for. >> Yep. >> Around like Muay Thai and then around like education and violence prevention around like masculinity, sexual violence, pornography and stuff. Y >> but I'm not like a rugby player or even like a big influencer, >> you know, like people are famous of being an influencer massively >> more so than perhaps

traditional media. >> Yeah, definitely. >> So, I'm definitely mindful of uh my space in the ecosystem, you know what I mean? >> I always buzz out when people are like, "Oh, I'm famous." I'm like, "I don't know, bro." Like, are you really? >> Yeah. It's kind of um there's levels of fame, right? And I think that uh it doesn't there's no point in comparing them because they're for different reasons and for different situations and different niches and niches like yours are quite niched down that like >> to be a household name in that space. You'd have to be pretty controversial in some of the political conversations or the like especially like um >> uh you say like the masculinity conversation or the pornography or um

violence minimization stuff. You'd have to be quite controversial for that to be mainstream conversation. >> I don't know about controversial because I would actually love to, you know, have a bigger following in order to have those conversations >> with people outside the bubble. >> Yeah. >> You know, like New Zealand's a country with the worst rate of domestic violence in the OECD. >> How do you not just talk to other activists and people who get it? >> And how do you talk to like >> everyone? Do you know what I mean? And that that's kind of what I was saying is that like it when I say controversial, it doesn't that doesn't necessarily mean you have to say like you just have to say something

that a a significant portion of the population will disagree with or at least >> polarizing polarizing galvanizing controversial like I don't want to do any crimes, bro. >> No. Exactly. You just got to say something that like ignites a response from a larger portion which isn't always easy to do. >> My wife says this. She's like, "If you talked how you actually talk when you're on social media, if you talked how you really talk with your boys or how you talk with me, >> Yeah. >> you'd be huge." >> Yeah. >> Cuz I curse and I swear and I I have like a pretty crash sense of humor. >> But if you watch my Instagram videos, they're reasonably dry, you know, >> cuz um >>

cuz I have had unpleasant experiences on social media and I actually really hate it >> and I can't be bothered with >> Yeah. the comment section >> and and that's always like the balance of the dance you got to have right in these situations is like >> can I sacrifice my mental health for this message and there's a balancing act it's not one or the other you've got to find the medium that works for both >> yeah totally >> because you can't just accept all the hate coming in that's a lot for some people to handle but you also >> you can't say I support this cause if you're not willing to have the dance >> so you got to find the balance >> which

is weird because the stuff that I believe or you know it's very academically and and professionally evidence-based. >> It's not >> but so is not smoking you know. >> Well yeah totally or like not drinking alcohol that's something not drinking >> not drinking alcohol like being vegetarian these are things that >> but humans have like Yeah. People Yeah. Right. >> Like telling people not to drink like when I stop drinking like you tell people that story and they're like they feel insecure in themselves and then they want to lash out about it. >> Yeah. So, um, >> good on you for stopping drinking. How sober are you? How many years? >> Um, well, I first stopped drinking in 2017, and I've had little bits and

pieces in between. Probably last year was probably my biggest of all going back to drinking, but yeah, pretty much from 2017 to like 2023, I was sober. >> And then nowadays, like the point of for me is um it's not about going back to drinking um like I used to. like it would be like, "Okay, we're going to have a really nice glass of wine with this meal because it's part of that experience." And so I use I I have drinking now more if I do do it. It's more about this year I'm not drinking, but for me it's more about if I was to drink again. It's part of a dining experience. >> Oh yeah. So you're not like in recovery. You never been

like >> rock bottom. Oh no. >> Yeah. I was definitely alcoholic when I first gave up. Yeah, >> I definitely and that's why like for a period of six, seven years, it was just like stone cold soap bar till I got to and I and I had a lot of transformation in that period of time where now for me if I was to bring it back for special occasions or something that would be a slippery slope >> but as part of a dining experience for something like that where I like >> I used to work hospitality and I really love that sort of stuff. I used to hotels for a living. >> So for that piece I can handle it. >> Um but still I'm

better off just not drinking. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a fine dance. to find out. >> You've got to >> Yeah. I'd rather just not drink. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't want to say I fully now don't drink cuz there will be times where I might want to. >> Um >> but it would be like you could count the amount of times I had one hand in a year, you know? >> That's what I was like before I quit. I never had my own drinking problem, but alcoholism runs in my family very severely. >> Yeah. >> And then uh yeah, I grew up around a lot of crazy stuff and unpleasantness. And so when I quit, it wasn't hard. And it

wasn't even quitting. It was not like I drank every weekend or anything. I was literally like I I had my last time I got hung over when I was 24. >> Yeah. >> And then I drank very very very I even drank infrequently then and then >> I drank even less frequently. >> We're thinking like 10 times a year or something. >> Yeah. >> Up until 2007 and then I just was like I'm just not going to drink. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's great. >> Yeah, I'm stoked on it. And it is surprisingly how counterultural that is. >> Yeah. Oh, massive. Especially 2007. >> Well, yeah. So, I grew up in the in where you from. >> Oh, yeah. My dad, too. Oh, yeah. >> I

was out on the weekend Muay Thai fights. Okay, cool. >> But yeah, I grew up visiting my grandparents out >> and I grew up in West Oakland. >> Okay. Y >> So, a lot of like bench drinking, man. It was hectic. >> Yeah. I was the same. Like I used to work. I'd probably drink five, six times a night. >> Yeah. Yeah. and everyone around me like like in my 20s like ex partners and stuff and >> you'd always be the odd one out and it was kind of weird. >> And then actually young people drink less now. >> Yeah. >> Uh like by the data. >> Yeah. >> But part of that is because a lot of their socialization is online >> and then

I'm like what's worse? >> That's real interesting. Hey, I I I screenshots on my phone. I screenshotted this um summary of a um survey study that was done in Canada just recently. And in Canada at least, the drinking levels of young people have gone back to precoid levels. >> Oh, right. Okay. So, they've gone back up. >> They've gone back up. Right. >> So, we've got it's they their current hypothesis is that it's been long enough now that one those same people who were drinking less previously are back in more social situations and they've also grown up in their career and have money to buy it. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> And like so they're wondering like is the what they're trying to determine is

like was there actually a cultural change or was it just circumstantial? >> Circumstantial. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I wonder about that here too then. >> Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to say I I can tell you right now that my team who are young just don't drink like >> people are more health conscious. >> Way more health conscious. >> People go to the gym more. But then there's all these other problems that emerge with that. I don't know if you've been to the gym lately >> but everyone's on like steroids. >> Yeah. like particularly young men like and I'm like yo dude you have heaps of testosterone >> I wish I don't miss it like >> um but they do because they want to look

like influencers and that's really bad long term and more young men have got body dysmorphia and a whole range of like >> image based issues on account of wanting to perform for social media. >> Yeah. And then >> we know what I've noticed in the gym and it's really sad. >> Yeah. >> You know, the bro who you go with or the sister like uh will wear their head headphones and they're wearing their headphones and you're just kind of like >> standing next to each other swapping in and out and there's no seeming like human connection. >> Y >> have you noticed that? >> 100%. So, there's a couple of guys here that I go to the gym with uh occasionally and when we're at

the gym, like go we're talking and like I won't put headphones on, but you see everyone else he's working out together and we're kind of it's kind of funny because people like give us weird looks cuz you know like we're all joking around and bantering and doing all this stuff. We're being human, right? >> And and then like they're younger so they're kind of like oh [ __ ] everyone's like noticing us. It's like it doesn't really matter. Like they just forget forgot that they're hanging out together too busy. So I've definitely seen it as a funny >> and and like if you look at like are you familiar with the research of like Jonathan height and stuff. >> Jonathan height is uh one of the leading

global researchers and advocates around restricting social media use for young people. >> Yeah. And uh he and another academic called Gene Twingi who wrote a book called IGEN they like track like the rise in like anxiety, depression, suicide, self harm and behavior >> off the growth of social media you know >> and I meet young people who can't seem to hold a conversation. They kind like interface with you. They're a bit anxious >> which is in account that they kind of are in these like little bubbles. Yes, don't get me wrong, like I enjoy social media, >> but I think we would be aiss to say that it's not >> great for us, particularly in excess. >> I I I I love this conversation because

I think cuz as you know, like it's such a nuanced >> conversation like anecdotally and this is definitely anecdotally because it's just my team like we're obviously a social media agency >> on social media. >> Talk [ __ ] about do it. I mean this is going to go on social media. It's always funny mocking social media on social media. >> I know. That's the thing. So, I'll make these videos. I'm like, "Yo, what's up? You should get off your phone on my phone." >> On your phone. Exactly. Right. And >> it's not lost on me. >> And I don't think it's wrong. I think like having those clarity breaks uh when you're scrolling social media. There will be definitely sometimes I'll be scrolling and someone will

say like, "Get off your phone, like it's time to go to bed." Like, "Actually, that's a great video. >> I need to get off the phone." Kind of thing. What I've noticed, you you talked about um young people not being able to like converse with others and like have these open conversations. I um what I've learned from my team and who are like chronically online because it's their job and it's what they do and you know and I um >> I realized that like even when I was young without social media, right? >> Yeah. I still really struggled to have those conversations unless it was in my friend group >> and you know as a like a so I'm like um my dad's cook island

I grew up out south and there's that like shyness that islanders have right there it's like kind of ingrained in culture >> so I just like never had that >> openness to talk like the people see me now versus what I was like >> even when I was 24 I feel that >> yeah and I I just wasn't that and so but what I've what I was being able to do with my team is I realized like what I didn't have was I wasn't put in situations to be exposed to talk >> and it's a skill that you learn actually. Totally. Right. And which is what you're saying is that the social media stops you from getting learning that skill. >> Yeah. It's a blocker

of experiences. >> Exactly. And so what I was thinking what I've decided is part of my leadership responsibilities with my team. It's like well I can't take away social media. Like I'm not the person to take that away from you. One I need you to work on it. And then two, it's not my that's not my job is to restrict social media to my team. But what I can do is on the other side of the ledger, which is like I can go and put you in situations where you have to learn how to do this talking and conversation. And so because I come from hospital like I I ran hotels for 12 years. We have this like pretty big hospitality culture in the team

where like people in our office can't be left alone and you have to welcome them out the door and get them coffees and >> but then when we have events which we have a lot of my team know if like people come in like you have to be out talking to them. I if I see you standing in a circle talking to each other you're going to get in trouble. There's not a lot you get in trouble for >> but you will get in trouble for that. like properly scrolling. >> You need to be going and talking to people >> and it really came to light uh probably about 3 months ago. We were at a careers expo day for um Oakland Uni and we

had they like asked us to come in and talk about our business and whatever and it was like a trade show and I had my young teen there Joanie and Connor and stuff. for, you know, mid20s, but they've been with me for about 3 years now. And so, they've gone through all this exposure that I've had to talking to people. And you watched all these young kids in there like not know how to go up and talk to people. Even people behind the booths who are like 30, just standing behind their booths, too scared to talk to anyone. And I said to my guys, "Your table's there. Here's behind it. You're not allowed there." >> Yeah. No, >> you're only allowed here. And they're like,

"Yeah, yeah, no. All good." And so, they were out mingling everyone. We like everyone is coming up to us and it really highlighted and even for Joan and Connor who were like [ __ ] like people don't know how to talk to each other. >> Yeah. >> And so and I was like yeah because like this is why I make you do these sorts of things because people like you're right social media has definitely made it worse >> but I do think that there's a way of like rather than saying don't get me wrong there's definitely reasons to restrict social media but like I can't >> Yeah. No, I get it. Yeah. the other side of the ledger. I think that also not like people don't learn

those skills. >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You can't just take something away. You actually have to give people the opportunity to to learn and to grow and >> like social media is not going anywhere. And I'm not advocating. >> Not saying that either. >> But I'm big on the say before 16 campaign. I don't if you've seen that like restricting it for under 16 year olds because the human brain is not developed to mid20s. Right. >> But yeah, you're right. Like you can't just be like that's bad because people like well okay well what else do I do? >> Yeah. providing them spaces like you're talking about is really important. And I think you're I think you make a fair >> a fair point there in

that >> it is hard to go out and do stuff. It's expensive like it might feel dangerous like >> you know there are barriers to like physical interaction >> but at the same time I do think that we've allowed tech companies to create this playing field where everyone's on the doom scroll >> 100%. We we we changed our um goals this year. So our goal had always been followers um as a brand. So, our number one priority as a brand, as a company, was to accumulate followers. >> And we've changed that to um I only care about our ability to put people into a room. >> Oh, yeah. >> Social media and our marketing is designed to put people in a room. >> Yeah. I

was talking to a friend who does what does he do. I forget what he does, but his takeaway was the same thing. >> I only do stuff online that will ensure that people get together offline. >> Yeah. >> Which is actually really cool. >> Yeah. So we run about like with us and our clients we do somewhere like four to five events a week and to put people in the room like we go on tonight there's about 40 people coming in for some personal branding coaching here >> and I said to him like that's the thing right like especially with the ra rise of AI and and like social media will just get more addictive like it's just what will happen it's it's been trending

that way for a long time >> um what how do we use that brand to have these in realerson conversations and interact interactions. And if we can do that, I mean, that's like the sort of Disney effect. I actually stole the marketing plan of Disney. That's what Disney do, right? Like 69% of their profit comes from Disney World, not from the movies. The movies are losers. >> Like Disney World as in like the physical >> Disney World and Disneyland is where all their profit comes from. And so they buy the reason they bought Marvel, the reason they bought Star Wars is IP to attract people to the parks. The parks make all the money. >> The movies are just there to build brand. >> Yeah.

Right. And then they siphon people into like stadiums and >> parks. So that's what you're doing. >> Yeah. And so it's the same thing from a business. >> So for someone like me, right, who's two businesses, one is teaching Muay Thai and kickboxing, >> the other is providing consultancy, education, public speaking. >> Social media should be trying to get people to bring me to their things or they come to my things if it's a gym, right? Is that what you're saying? >> Yeah, 100%. From a business perspective, >> you build this big huge brand of IP that people go, "You're famous. I wanted to listen to you. You've got a good opinion I want to say." And it's all just top of funnel to drive

them to these things in person. >> Yeah. I always am too lengthy on social media, though. >> Yeah. Yeah. But >> like I'm like, "All right, got to make a 90 second reel and then I better get cap cut, get the captions good." >> But then it's like I'm like, "Ah, seven people looked at this." Yeah. >> And I I feel like, you know, I have I'm I have a master's degree. Like, I'm not just talking [ __ ] Like, the stuff I'm actually saying isn't just my reckons. >> Uh not to say that an academic education uh means your opinions are worth more than other people's. I'm trying to say that what I'm >> presenting in my workspace is like research based. Yeah. Not to sound

like a wanker. >> No, but it's rooted in evidence. >> Yeah. It's rooted in evidence, dear viewer. >> I'm not like, >> yeah, >> I just had a thought and I'm going to tell >> but do you know what I mean? Like there is a difference in that like I think that we are drowning in distrust of institutions >> and I do understand that like institutions have let us down or led us astray >> and they have like vested power interests and they push particular narratives and ideologies and I do understand a healthy distrust. Mhm. >> I have a healthy distrust, >> but at the same time >> sometimes I'm like >> this is what the experts >> like agree on. Like there's a uniform

consensus on this >> around whatever issue it might be >> and then people like nah but my uncle said this on TikTok, bro. Like do you know? >> Yeah. No, I do. >> And that that that's what I'm trying to say when I say I have a background >> behind what I'm putting out on socials, you I I think that's I think like when I look at >> I just didn't want to come across as a wanker. >> No, no, no, no. I mean, you did, but No, I'm taking >> I did. I know. That's No, no, I did. That's why I'm like backtracking. >> No, but I think that there is like a Sorry. Um I think that there is like a the distrust

comes from this fact that people >> We're going to cut that. >> No, don't. That's >> No, we're going to cut it as a clip to go viral. Yeah. >> Um, no, we have um this distrust because humans think the world's black and white, but it's gray. >> And I think that's where it >> Oh, dude. It's It's insane, dude. The world is so nuanced. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I, you know, I I I had when it was co and I was really bored and like I was like, "Oh, do a podcast like everyone else, right?" And it was really fun, though. >> Like it wasn't like the very high production values, but I like to think the conversations were good. >> Yeah. And

I talked to a psychologist and in I think she's based in Australia and I was like there's like this borderline personality sort of >> which is a a condition where people split >> into like a a >> you're either like an angel or you're a devil, right? Like there's no nuance in in how you perceive other people. >> Interesting. And that and that's what I think social media is like >> by design >> because as you know as a social media expert like the algorithm loves extremism and outrage and >> and actually there's research I think from MIT or somewhere where lies travel six times faster than the truth which is great if someone wants to lie about you >> you know. >> Yeah. It's

a lot of work to uncover like undo that lie. >> Yeah. and and people don't think like that like the like the outrage is on page one and then should it prove to be untrue or more complicated the retraction either never happens is on page seven right and I think that's the issue like for quite a while I was posting about the problems of like >> outrage culture and cancel culture >> which does lead to like people killing themselves suicide right >> yeah yeah for sure >> and um you know internationally and nationally and that That is sort of some of the problems with it, right? Like you say, like there's no like nuance and being a human being is nuance. It's very complicated. >>

Very complicated. >> No one is all good or all bad. >> No. No. Exactly. >> I don't know if you know, but like I work with um people in corrections like people who are in alcohol and drug rehabilitation, >> people who come to us from like the criminal justice system who are pre-trial or post-trial, >> people who have done the worst possible things but also experienced them. Right. >> Yeah. Many people who are offenders were also once victims. Doesn't excuse their perpetration of violence or crime, whatever it is, >> but we would need to account for it should we want to stop that in the future. >> And um I don't know, it's just super complicated to work with people like that in real life

>> and hold grace and compassion and kindness for them despite what they have done. And I don't see that online, >> particularly in like the social justice space. >> Like I'm like, >> I knew all about like compassion, forgiveness, kindness, and social change, but actually your drive is to >> punish. >> Yeah. >> And excommunicate and other. >> Yeah. >> And you know what's interesting is that couple who got um outed for the affair they're having with the >> Oh, yes. >> The big >> Yeah. The Coldplay concert. They've got more air time than like rapists and murderers and drug dealers. >> Like by far and away >> for what? Being human beings. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like we don't we don't know their

marriages. We don't know their histories. >> We just have this rush to like moral judgment. >> Yep. >> It's like let's put them in the stocks globally and keep them online forever. >> And like >> that it's super ugly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. >> It's like super duper ugly. And then uh going back to that podcast, I interview interviewed a woman called uh Dr. Christine Marie um and she wrote like a a body of research around media trauma. >> Yeah. >> She keeps a tally of people who commit suicide of cancer culture. >> [ __ ] >> So like that mob mentality, that rush to judgment to be harsh and shameful and >> it does lead to the worst outcomes if we're not careful. Right. >> Yeah.

How do you suggest like cancel culture is an interesting one so I've got my own thoughts about it but like if you you obviously can't stop a mob because that's what it ends up becoming right kids it's a mob mentality >> you can't stop a mob once it started or you can't stop it from forming actually because that's actually quite a really hard thing but there are other things well maybe you can maybe I'm miss just missing something here but from the other side of it what uh like if someone is going through that thing like how do you stop those people from having that >> from killing themselves? >> I think it's always really important to like reach out to someone. >> Yeah. >>

Hey, like I seen I seen you're going through all this sort of stuff. I did this to someone. I don't even know them personally. They're like a politician in New Zealand >> and they're getting a bit of a hard time right now. >> And we talked a little bit historically online. >> It seemed cool. >> I don't give Can I swear in your pocket? >> Yeah, of course. I give [ __ ] like like like what they have done or have not done. >> Yeah. >> But seeing all this stuff being said about them, I just like, "Hey man, I see see what's being said about you. I really hope you're doing okay." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like cuz that must be really hard. >> Yeah.

>> Like whether they've done what is being said about them or not. >> Yeah. >> They're still a human being. >> Exactly. >> And they still deserve some degree of compassion. Right. And like as someone who actually works with our hardest to reach communities every week in person and has real life conversations with them >> and these are people who have definitely harmed people. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm talking like murder. Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And I spend time with them, talk to them about their families and stuff. M >> I'm never going to think this person deserves to lose their job, their reputation, their livelihood, their income that they pay for their kids with >> because they made an off joke or

they've got or they did uh like the politically incorrect thing >> or they've got a drug problem and they're, you know, they're a politician or >> they cheated on their um husband or they cheat on Right. Like that just is like >> Yeah. It's like that's just being humane. >> Yeah. >> And um >> that's such a No, I love I love that. >> This is This is just human. Like we've I think what social media does is >> removes the humanity from other people, right? Actually, there's a term. It's called the online disinhibition effect. >> It's not a very sexy name, >> but online disinhibition is when I don't see you as a human being. Like if you and me Stanley were hanging out

and I swore at you, I called you names. I told you kill yourself like kids do now. >> Like >> KY is like, you know, I I go speak in schools, right? And sometimes I talk about online bullying. What's [ __ ] mean? I'll ask 1500 students. Everyone kill yourself. >> Like that's our culture now, >> right? >> But if I said that to you in person, I would see you either get visibly upset or angry or you might threaten to hit me. >> Y >> online, that doesn't happen. And what will happen is 10, 100, a thousand, 10,000, 100,000 people >> will pile on to any given person on any given day >> and say all sorts of horrible things. >> Yeah. >> Cuz they don't

see them as a human being anymore. >> Get it? >> And it's not People often talk about how like conservatives and right-wing people and racists are horrible online, which they are. >> Yeah. >> But social justice people are just as bad. >> Everyone is horrible on the internet, dude. Doesn't matter who you vote for. Exactly. >> Right. And so for me, you ask if someone's going through that, >> who cares who they vote for? Who cares what they think? They're still a human being, >> and they shouldn't be going through what they're going through. >> Yeah. >> Maybe they are having a mental health episode, >> right? Like if you genuinely want to be a kind, compassionate, thoughtful person, >> instead of using this moment

in time >> to join the tribe to get clout for saying the right mean thing about >> this person, >> why don't you like >> be a decent person instead, right? >> Cuz there's a lot of performativity on now. >> Y >> you're like I see some people like preaching on the internet. I'm like, dude, like you do all the cocaine in Bolivia. Do you know what I mean? Like, and people like, "Well, really, who cares?" I'm like, "Well, have you considered where cocaine comes from?" Like, a violent >> criminal enterprise >> got that here until like cocaine is legalized or decriminalized, >> little kids die for your fun weekend, right? >> So, do you know what I mean? Like, no one's perfect. Oh, you

you know what? If >> you know, I don't know, like we all drive cars. Like, >> you know, we're all causing harm in some way in our existence. some people more than others. >> Like take a moment before you want to like cast your stone, man. >> Yeah, I agree. I think um where my mind goes to is like can you like what can you do about that moment mentality like can it change? Can you actually change >> I think making I think it seem I don't know like I'm not >> I'm not as a I'm not as aware of it as I used to be. Like I don't see it as much. >> Like I'm sure people are still getting piled on. Oh, for

sure. >> Yeah, you'd know more than me >> all the time. >> But I'm kind of like out of that, you know what I mean? Like I don't >> I don't subscribe to a lot of that thinking. >> Yeah. >> Um, so I'm not aware of it. But I Yeah, I think I think to your question like how do you change it? >> First and foremost, if you want to change anything, you have to say it yourself, right? Yeah. >> Don't participate in it. >> Yeah. >> Right. And then if you see your friends or your online connections doing it, hey, why you doing this? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> How's that going to make the world better? I think that's a good thing to ask

too >> is like what is the benefit of this? >> How is this >> making things better? >> And often people like oh we got to punish the evildoer. But I seen so much of this that I actually think what it's done is like >> galvanized the extremes of any sort of position, right? Yeah. >> Like and um I don't want to live in a hyper galvanized hyper polarized world where we don't see each other as people anymore. >> Yeah. >> Cuz what's happening is that like you are getting a rise in actual political authoritarianism, you know, >> doing social discourse uh I think is really divisive and dangerous and you see a rise in violence like actual physical violence, right? >> Yeah. >> You

know, like I think a lot of people forget that. >> Yeah. I remember a second year comparative politics paper I did when I was doing my undergrad and the professor was explaining that that's me straining for my two brain cells that left to like remember what he said. >> Um the further we gravitate away from the center the more likelihood of physical violence. Right? If we can't like convene around some agreement of facts and figures here or whatever it might be >> and it's like aliens out here then it's easy to like >> it goes from online disinhibition to all right well I'm going to shoot and kill and stab people you know or punch people out >> and that happens like we are seeing

a rise of that in America there have been people actually murdered over politics recently >> and that you know that's going to happen in New Zealand if we're not >> careful with the way we talk about things. >> Yeah. >> Like we really need to I think turn the heat down >> and um you know this is a saying like we create a lot of heat but we don't shed a lot of light you know >> we need to shed a lot more light and hold more grace for >> people we disagree with. >> How do you do that? Like like I I agree with you wholeheartedly agree with you. Um, and where I struggled with this conversation is like how how do you change

that? Like I know you say like starting with yourself's like a good first place. You make some changes but like as you know like talking to um 8 billion people even five million people in this country like that is quite a hard task to go hey everyone go look in the mirror and have a conversation with yourself right like as you know it's like it's almost impossible. Yeah, >> an impossible task to be had. >> So just like um like how how do you have societal institutional change like what is the mechanism for that? Like how do we do that in a way that actually like affects change and can take on these other powers which are trillion dollar tech companies forcing addiction to their

platforms. >> Well, I think that's where legislation comes in place, right? Which I think is >> top down and bottom up. Y >> you know like so you need grassroots movements giving social and political permission to legislators to put >> laws in place that restrict the power of said companies right >> I don't know if you've read um careless people >> by Sarah >> Win Williams New Zealander who worked at Meta >> okay >> she's like right up there chilling with like Cheryl Samberg and Mark Zuckerberg and stuff her book is a great read >> cool >> it's a memoir >> and she talks about just how careless like Facebook was and it contributed to come back to my example real world violence and say

my enema >> like like people would organize like riots and killings and stuff >> right and sorry and death and violence would fall out of those riots right like >> I think it's the Rahonga people forgive my pronunciation is ethnic minority in my who >> have been horribly persecuted and social media was a part of >> y >> of that right Y >> if we don't want that to happen here or Australia or wherever it might be if we want to turn the temperature down, >> you actually need laws in place that hold technology into account, right? Like >> so I think say to come back to it like that B416 campaign is a great start like if we can't >> restrict access for our

most vulnerable people, our children, >> right? Then what what what what's the point having to government? You know what I mean? >> We don't let young people drink alcohol. We or vape or >> uh use tobacco. >> We encourage them not to use elicit drugs because we know that it's all really harmful for their development. >> There's enough research now that tells us that social media is the same. >> Yeah. >> Government needs to step in, legislate, not ban. Yeah. >> But legislate. >> Yeah. >> For an age gate around that. >> Yeah. >> And then >> what do you think? I'm sure I'm sure we could >> encourage or force >> adjusting algorithms so they're not >> as inflammatory, right? You know, like Mark

Zuckerberg like, oh, we've done away with fact checkers. >> You know what I mean? Like we are drowning in [ __ ] There is so much stuff out there that we just that are shaping is shaping public opinion. >> Yeah. >> Personal views as much as like >> political consensus. >> Yeah. And we have no idea if it's true >> because at the same time mainstream media which again I understand uh a distrust in >> has like shrunk and there are journalistic standards that are required before you publish things >> and so you got like these 30 second sound bites on mainstream sources but at least they're like fact check sound bites >> compared to whatever it is Joe Blog says on the phone that goes viral,

right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I I'm sure there is some, you know, like you said, AI is amazing. I'm sure there is some way that human ingenuity can figure out a way to regulate that. >> Yeah. What do you say to like like that B416 campaign for instance? Like what about the people who their opinion is like that that banning or that like restriction only causes things to go underground? And in the same response would be like from my personal experiences like when >> uh I also couldn't drink when I was 14 but I did three days a week. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know my homies too. >> And but but then it was like >> like how do I how do you

think that that that B416 campaign for instance like counters that piece? Like what about the kids who are really the ones at most high risk are now just going underground with it? >> Going underground in what regard? like no one knows that they're on it. They're hiding it. >> So the to the best of my understanding and my understanding is limited. >> Yeah. >> It's not about um making an individual >> uh not be able to use it. It's about holding the platform itself >> to account. Y >> so the technology is put in place >> that instead of just a kid ticking a box, >> there's an actual process that they have to verify their age with. Right. Mhm. >> So I believe in

Australia this law is coming in place in October. Feel free to fact check me dear viewer. >> And for every like violation of the law, the tech platform has to pay a $70 million fine. >> So it's not putting the onus on a family or an individual, it's putting the onus and responsibility on the company. Right. So the kid can't sneak off and just, you know, use the phone. Yeah. Right. Like it's about ensuring that should a young person want to access Yeah, >> you know, Tik Tok or whatever it is. >> Like say for example, >> like say for example like doesn't China like can't turn off Tik Tok? >> Yeah. >> At night time >> and >> you would know that. >> But

but also they they they have banned the use of Facebook and Google yet? >> Yeah. >> You use a VPN and >> Yeah. Yeah. >> because it's restricted to that space because it's not a global law. >> Yeah. And then that's a that's a fair point. I guess I would just argue that any restriction is better than no restriction. >> Yeah. >> Is not banning it. Yeah, >> it's like we say wear seat belts, don't smoke. People still don't wear seat belts still, but smoking rates are down now. >> What do you think about like then if you apply that to like harm minimization tactics and drug abuse? >> Yeah, I'm I'm big on harm minimization, >> which is like don't like decriminalize it >>

but allow us to have opportunities to see the stuff come to life to fix it. Whereas like if you do take let people take it offline or take it underground maybe then can't spot the kids who are suffering. Well, are we talking about decriminalization of drugs or >> I'm I'm saying using that as like an example of banning drugs wasn't good. We know that >> there's been a lot of studies on that. But >> even though we haven't Okay, so to use your uh analogy, >> yeah, >> I believe in decriminalization and even legalization of elicit drugs, right? The war on drugs has failed. >> Mhm. >> I would still not say under 16 year olds should use drugs. >> Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. >>

Similarly with social media. I don't believe in banning social media. >> Social media has got lots of benefits. >> Yeah. >> Uh there are good things that come from it. >> Yeah. >> And it's fun. >> Yeah. >> But I still know that it's not good for under 16 >> year olds. >> And I'm not saying >> you should never use it. Just wait till you're developmentally equipped to use it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because what we're seeing is that young people who heavily use it >> are having all manner of psychosocial problems. They're exposed to sexual predation. >> People don't talk about it. But your child is far more likely to be >> sexually offended against online than in the park. >> Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. >> Right. Like your kid is more likely to be groomed online than going out by themselves. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Kids are exposed to gore content. You're familiar with gore. >> Like I've spoken to young people in schools. This is my work. M >> and I always remember this boy who said, "I've just watched so many people get their heads cut off that I that I can't get out of my brain, >> why is a child able to see that?" >> Yeah, 100%. >> You know, but until we regulate it >> and there >> I guess what I'm saying is like >> and and don't get me wrong, education is a part of it too, right? Like >> and and I also

don't think >> I think it can be goes back to like black Sorry, but like it's not black or white, it's all these things at once. so nuance and this is why this argument is so good to have cuz like >> argument in the sense that like it's a great conversation in that like to your point just there like I also agree that like >> um what you're saying but then if you take the same analogy and run it out like you're saying yeah kids shouldn't >> um be doing drugs at under 16 they do >> but they're not going to be assessed by different laws about decriminalization and that harmonization applies still to them as well even though they're going to do it because

It's still like >> you know if we legalization might be slightly different if over you know with alcohol for instance over 18 we're allowed to drink under 18s they're not allowed to drink that law is slightly different oh sorry then harmonization laws which are like door decriminalization laws in the sense that I can if I do heroin I'm not going to go to jail for done and doing it but I'm going to get some help that I need >> and under 16s they're still going to get that same help because it's okay for them to come and say look I got problem. What I'm saying is that should that not apply then also to social that if they're just purely banned that's actually say that's

more like the alcohol laws as opposed to the decriminalization laws if you know what I mean. >> So you're saying how do we teach young people to use social media responsibly? >> Yeah. or to be able to like do it in a situation where it can be both monitored and they feel they're not hiding as much because it's it's >> have to if you have to hide your use of it. >> Yeah, it's a problem. >> It's a real problem now because then you've got you've got a separate persona online you being someone else. >> Kids already do that now. >> No, I know. But at least it's uh they're not hiding it. They just you know like it like kids are dumb. Like it's

real easy to track if if you really wanted to. Yeah, I guess I' >> But you'd have to work really around the system to hide it if it was fully banned. So, they'd have to get smart to get it. >> Yeah, I guess if I'm understanding you correctly, and I may not be. >> It's okay. Yeah, it's good. It's worth it. >> Um, >> I guess I would say kids are hiding their social media use already. Yeah. >> And it's a free-for-all. >> Mhm. >> Uh, kids have like multiple accounts. Are you familiar with this? So, they've got like the service level account, which mom and dad can see like, oh, it's Billy soccer. >> Yeah. And then they've got like their sub account and

their sub sub account where like all sorts of horrible things get seen around. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So I think that's already happening. I a and to the best of my knowledge uh putting technological innovation in place which >> in place to minimize not prevent that happening is the goal of a campaign like B416. Right. At the same time, let's educate those kids so when they inevitably are going online, >> they're better able to use online with some use online use tools online or platforms online >> with a better degree of critical media literacy >> with a better degree of uh maturity. Like the older we get, the more mature our brains are. Well, hopefully. >> Yeah. Um, >> and that's kind of what I

think too, like I >> I think it's two things at once. You know what I >> mean? I think it's such a nuance conversation like we've been saying in this conversation. It's like it's real hard actually because like it's unintended consequences is what everyone's trying to think of. like what are the but like >> I think there are some stuff in I think technology is more advanced than maybe what this legislation allows for like this legislation's going let's um restrict access to the platform itself >> when actually the the technology is actually advanced enough to restrict access to the type of content we don't want them to see that they just couldn't ever find it. >> Yeah, that would be wonderful. You know like like

it's for instance like one New Zealand is a client of access to child pornography just on their whole network just it's impossible for you to get it through their network based on their AI. You can do it on other networks but on their network you can't. >> Yeah. And and yet we still have a massive problem with access >> because they're only one. >> That's true. I don't know the data around that and I don't know >> how >> Yeah. I don't know the data around that so I can't speak with a strong >> I don't know the full data either. I just >> like I do know we Yeah. And Yeah. I don't I'm trying to be that guy who's not like speaking on

my ass. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. Like >> the best people to talk to that would be a couple of people called um Joe Robertson and Holly Gene Brooker. They have they're like way more hardcore than I am around this. >> Um they have a campaign called Make Sense which is big on >> restriction of access to social media and >> harmful content. I again I'm like >> even if you're not consuming harmful content online as a young person >> just being online a lot >> which is what social media platforms want you to be >> can be detrimental to you >> for sure >> like >> for sure >> like if we think about anxiety depression selfimage not going out as

much >> y >> right >> y >> again I enjoy social media >> and I think it's a business tool for me >> for me. I don't know, man. Like, I see kids at the bus stop now and they're quiet, bro. >> Bus stops should be noisy, >> you know? Like, kids should be talking to each other >> instead of like shutting themselves off onto their individual >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? >> No, I agree. I I think what I I >> like I'm obviously not in opposition. It's it's really actually Can I just like pause and say >> this is really nice >> to have like a >> kicking around of ideas with someone >> and I don't even know if

you disagree with me >> but I really enjoy the tone that you're speaking to me and that doesn't happen online >> and that comes back you can't >> it's yeah there's no like intonation right >> and I'm taking you a good faith and you're taking me a good faith and I don't think you're a bad person if we were having this chat on show or on X or whatever, >> scrap you, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're an idiot. You know what I mean? And that's what happens. I'm sure I've had >> like I've not been involved in anything like that for a long time, but back in the day when I was more reactive and less mature, I would tell people like, "Go [ __ ] yourself,

whatever on the internet." >> And I have so much cringe thinking about my historical >> online behavior. >> And um but now that seems to be like in mass. Yeah. >> Like I kind of like got off the carousel just in time and now everyone's doing it >> and now everyone's doing it and getting props for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But point is it's really nice to disagree with someone or just explore an idea with someone >> cuz we're both trying to find like I know that you care. >> You know that I care. >> We're just trying to find like what's the solution? >> What's the solution? Cuz it's a hard it's a hard >> so like adversarial now and like it's like

zero sum games now. >> It's all this or all that. >> I agree. And like the B416 campaign as an example to come back to is that I at a fundamental level I think it's got good roots in that what it's trying to do. And I think that um where I always had trouble with is like I I think that it was I think it's the start of a journey not the end of a journey. And I think but I think it's getting promoted as the start of a journey and I actually think that's going to be detrimental to its success. Do you think it's you? >> Oh, sorry. It's been promoted as endogen. No, I got you. I got you. >> Um, and I

think that's actually going to be detrimental to its success. >> Well, yeah. Well, I'm not sure either way, >> but I don't know. >> I still think it's a good start. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just got to get started on the process. >> That's it. >> And you got to get people talking about it, but I and I think um I think these conversations are good. We we just talked for an hour on it and didn't even talk about your career or nothing. So, this is about this has been awesome. >> Like actually awesome. And like my team know like they give me this whole brief like you got to go this way, stand off the conversation. But then I get caught on to something

like this gonna be a great conversation. >> Well, you said I was like, "What do you want to talk about?" To me, it's actually really nice to not talk about my work for a >> Yeah. But this is your work, too. >> Well, it is my work. >> No, this is cool. And this is good. >> I'm doing some talks in schools about social media and stuff soon, you know, >> and I love it. Like, as someone who works in social media, my job is to get people to watch more content. That is my goal as a business. >> Um, we have to have some level of like ethics when we do this. like one what type of businesses will we work with but two

like what type of content we'll do and I was thinking about as like a last note like you talked about the couple from Coldplay and I was thinking at the time like >> the the first thing that popped in my head was the businessman going [ __ ] I should go to all my team and say how do we utilize this meme for our clients >> and then like within a couple seconds of having that thought I was like do I want to pile on to these people with all these brands I can control to just add to more hate for these people. And I was like, I'm just not going to say anything. >> Good for you. >> And we did nothing about it and across

all of our brands. And like we could have easily done some funny side piece content, you know, like we could have easily done this thing and it would have been a real easy cheap trick. >> But all I'm doing there is like, hey you guys, I'm going to punch you as I profit. >> And I think that that that conversation needs to be happen more with a lot of people just to be like, should we be doing this? >> Totally. >> Yeah. >> I appreciate your um empathy there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess when you are, you know, I was talking about cancel culture and stuff before. That's a perfect example of it. >> You made a decision because you have a team, >>

your decisions amplified, right? >> Yeah. Do you know why I think we did? We I had that response and I think why the rest of my team never had the decision was that >> so many of us are creators ourselves and receive the hate because a lot of marketers aren't by trade. They're marketers, not creators first. >> We're all we've a lot of us have got online presence and have received hate in the past. It sucks, right? >> And and it's like, why do I want to give that to someone else? >> You know, so a lot of creators aren't >> I wouldn't say all of them, but a lot of them don't give a lot of hate themselves because they know what it feels

like. I think that's what it was. Whereas a lot like I saw so much marketing stunts about this couple so much, right? And it's like >> that's a bit of a cheap shot. Like if this was any other person doing something morally wrong, we would have all got smashed for making that joke. But because it was people cheating and it was kind of funny >> and then the way that it happened like it was it was pretty funny the way it was pretty bad luck dude. >> It was bad luck. It was pretty funny but like any other thing >> any company making that joke would have been criticized but because this one thing was kind of let go we let it be okay. So

it's kind of Anyway, bro, honestly that was awesome conversation. I didn't know where this conversation was going to go and I'm glad it went there. >> Yeah, me too. I was I had no idea what to expect. >> Yeah. So it's been really nice >> and I think it was still good for a lot of people who listen who are creators. A lot of people of this audience are people who have online presence. A lot of people watch it and I think for them there's some some good takeaways and and also to understand that like if you want to have this debate like with people, debate's good. Have it in person though. >> It is. I totally agree. I think most of the heat that

happens online and the horribleness >> just wouldn't happen if we were in the room together. >> Yeah, 100%. That was awesome. >> Nice. Nice to really nice to meet you. >> You too, man. That was such a good conversation. I'm glad we had it. >> Cheers. Thank you.