MasterChef Champion Sam Low's Unexpected Journey of Food, Identity, and Purpose.

Welcome to the podcast. Nice to have you here. No, thank you for being on it. Why don't you quickly introduce yourself and we'll get into it. Hi, my name is Sam Law. I am the current New Zealand Master Chef Champion of 2022 and I am a cookbook author, podcaster, and a Chinese gastronomy enthusiast. I love that. That's the best intro. Gastronomy enthusiasts. I love it. That's a great one. Um, so am I. I'm going to I'm going to say that. I don't know if I'm as good as he is, though. I'm going to take you back to the start. Okay. I want to know um as I said to you off camera, I want to know before Master Chef. I want to know about the

life. I want to know what led to that. I want to know like where this journey started. I'm exhospinging to be on Master Chef and then what it uh means for you. Yeah, it's kind of crazy like once I say it all out loud, you'd be like, "Oh yeah, you're exactly where you're meant to be." Um so I was born in Fiji, the Pacific Islands. Um, so I grew up there until I was 8 and then uh Fiji went through a coup. My parents were like, "This is scary. Let's get out of here." Um, so we sold our noodle factory for no money basically and our childhood home. And then we moved to New Zealand cuz we knew relatives here. Um, and then we started

building our life here. But my parents worked as, you know, just business owners for really small like, you know, uh, dairies, uh, Polynesian takeaways, Chinese takeaways. like they did all of that um from the ground and uh with very limited English. And um you know, fast forward to high school, I was that kid that was just known for hospitality. Like I was like the star kid who entered every high school cooking competition or the coffee competition and you know I would help out all the kids in the class to like pass their exams. Like I was there. Yeah. Okay. Love it. Um, and then, you know, the teachers really believed in me. They like got me to like volunteer for things like the cooking at

the Ronald McDonald House and Oh, cool. Um, you know, entering all these competitions. And then this opportunity of doing the food and beverage apprentichip at Sky City came up. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. And they put my name forward. They're like, "Did you want to apply?" I was like, "Yep." Um, then I got into the chefing apprenticeship. I lasted two weeks cuz it was just so hot. For a 17year-old doing like full-time chefing gigs in a prep kitchen, city making like 500 liters of stock a day. It was just like I was like nah. And then I'm so then I like begged and pleaded to move to front of house. So then I did um and I thrived um after two and a half years at

Sky City working in every restaurant, hotel, bar, I uh did really well. I entered all the like you know the competitions and was through MIT as well. Yeah. And then um after the apprentichip I was like man like I had access to sumelier mixologists, restaurant managers, fine dining, casual dining chefs like all that but no one knew anything about coffee then. Yeah. So what year? Yeah. Oh this was like I would say like mid to late 2000 and so like 2007 8 like that kind of time. Um and 2007. I reckon I was probably just finishing at Sky City. Or maybe there. Yeah, you might have been six. No, I reckon I I might have even crossed over with you. I used to work with

Cece. So old. Cece. Uh Cecilia and she was she ended up being like manager of like Oh, like restaurant. Yeah, restaurant manager. Food and beverage. Yeah, I used to work with her a bit and stuff. Anyway, we're going we're going on a tangent. So, we must have crossed over just that's before I moved to Australia. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, K, sorry to interrupt. Um, so then I, yeah, finished my apprentichip and then I was like, man, man, like no one knows anything about coffee and I Okay, no, more like 2010. Okay. 2010. Yeah. More like 2010. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no one knew anything about coffee. So then I was like, well, I love competing in coffee. I always like had a good result. And then I

applied for a junior position role at Atomic Coffee Roasters in Kingsland. And I got the job because my F+ card had like you know how you could customize your F plus card and have like pretty pictures on it. Mine was a latte art. Oh, that's sick. Yeah. And then so then I like bought a coffee with my card like knowing that they were hiring and then I like handed them my CV. I was that I love that. I was that nerd. That's so good. That's branding. That's good branding. Actual. Actual. And then um and then they called me back like you know 3 days later and then I got the job. Started off as a junior barista. proved, you know, my my work, dedication, and

I worked my way up to like a head barista role at a junior coffee trainer. Nice. Um, then I entered the national coffee competitions. Uh, because it's always that thing where like I think I've always worked around people that believed in me and like wanted to foster this career of mine and passion. And so then they like, you know, uh, funded me to compete in national latte art competitions. In 2013, I was 21. I won the New Zealand latte art championship. Amazing. Um and then the world's was in France. I flew to France solo. Took the wrong bus like um didn't know a word of you know French. Um had to walk 4 and 1/2 hours with my luggage to get to the hotel. Slept

for 21 hours straight. Woke up competed and ranked sixth in the world. Wow. Um so you know and I was like yeah and um and then 2015 rolls around and then I competed again. and I was ranked 10th in the world that year. Um, I opened up a little hole in the wall coffee shop inspired by like my time in Melbourne. Um, and 2016 I moved to Melbourne because I was like, you know, I'm at my pinnacle in coffee here. Like I want to learn as much as I can and Melbourne is, you know, the metro of coffee. Absolutely. in the world. I think I and yeah, so I worked uh for Code Black Coffee Roasters um and uh became their coffee trainer road training

program was managing like 60 baristas that is amazing. Um and then competed won the New Zealand barrista championships which is like my biggest goal in coffee. Um and then I did okay. I did okay at the world. Okay. I was a bit gutted because I didn't say please drink before I called time. So my drinks, some of my drinks called zero because the intention. Anyways, they've changed the rules since then. Um but oh such a technicality and then I was like okay man like I don't know what to do. Uh and I during this whole time when social media was like birth especially Instagram I was documenting everything. Um so I was you know on Instagram since 2012. Yeah. um you know taking photos of

my holy little coffee shop like every latte I made. And um so when I was working as a coffee trainer, I would also upload Chinese cooking recipe videos and it was like a nice way for me to like, you know, cook really nostalgic foods and flavors um and share it with the world, but also kind of like think about home cuz I was traveling quite a lot. Okay. Um, yeah. And then I started a pop-up, a restaurant pop-up concept called Dalin, named after the coffee term dial in. Okay. Yeah. Cuz I wanted to dial in my Chinese cooking um gastronomy. And I started doing that and then moved back to New Zealand and I was like, okay, I am not out, you know, with my

sexuality. Got it. Uh, and I was like, man, like what do I do? I'm like, Vancouver is where it's at if you want to like live your liberation, you know? So, you know, there's there's a entire like village named after, you know, like for the queer community and I was like, "Okay, this is where I need to go to like just like become one." Um, become a butterfly. I was I love that. I was there for a year. Yeah, I was working for a really cool coffee shop and um and after a year I was like, man, I just can't like I can't live off the very little money I'm making here. The cost of living there is so high, especially like working in hospitality.

Um if you're not attractive and like aren't making the dollars from uh tips, you know, tips um at like a giant corporate restaurant, like you won't thrive in the hospitality industry. So then I contacted my um you know ex cocoers from Melbourne. I was like, "Do you need a coffee trainer again?" And they're like, "Yep." They're like, "How much?" I was like, "This much." And then they're like, "When can you fly over?" I was like, "Okay, cool." Uh so I flew back over and I was like, "You know what? I'm going to give this bara championship one more go." My last hurrah. So I spent eight months preparing for this last hurra. I spoke with chef from three Michelin star restaurants, fried chicken masters, tea

masters, sumeier, mixologists, interviewing them like talking about the language of flavor and the flavor of love. Got it. And I learned a lot about how different industries share the same language, but their concept on what love meant within food was very different. And I was like, okay, how can I play with this? how can I um you know uh use this grand idea to play with memory, nostalgia, and flavor. So then I spent eight months prepping for the championships thinking to use ingredients because there's a a section in the competition where you can use signature ingredients. So I for the first time and I still haven't seen anyone on stage use it yet, but I wanted to use like insects, okay, to like season coffee.

Interesting. Um in Australia, you know, there's like the Australian ants taste like lemongrass. uh you know and they have Gerald wax flowers that smell like bubble gum. It's like insane like what you can find. And this was kind of like during the pinnacle of like the NMA food movement, you know, the foraging and like you can eat this grass and it tastes like your childhood, you know, like I wanted to play with that idea. Yeah. So this is like 2020. Yeah. I was like this is great. And then I also applied for a food scholarship with a slow food international movement and and it was going to be held at the gastronomic institute of um food in Palono, Italy. Yeah. And it was going to

be hosted by David Chang. Oh wow. And out of 20,000 applicants uh they chose 150 from around the world and I got selected. Oh amazing. I was like oh my god 2020 like this is the year. This is the year. And then co came and then they were like nah you sit back down. Um and then so then I came back to New Zealand like oh my god I'm like actually prior to that I was still working cuz coffee was not like coffee didn't stop during co so I was still going to the roaster like helping with quality control and and you know helping bag beans and blah blah blah. And then um so I was working full-time for 6 months cuz Melbourne was in

one of the longest lockdowns ever. So, I was working full time and I'd come home and sit in my living room alone for 6 months and I was like, "This is awful." Um, and I couldn't even spend money. So, then I was like, you know, I'm not like my mind was like spinning. I was like, I'm not happy. Like, I'm not happy here. I was like, and partly because I wasn't fully myself. I hadn't come out to my parents still. Okay, got it. So, then I was like, I'm going to go back to New Zealand. I'm gonna come out to my parents and um and then I can like just live this liberation in New Zealand's you know they they still like every like there

was no uh co Yeah. Yeah. Um so I did the twoe hotel quarantine lockdown and then I went viral. Did you know about this? No, I didn't. Okay. So over during the lockdown. So during I came back from Melbourne and I was in hotel quarantine for two weeks and um well every meal that they delivered in a paper bag and paper box in my hotel room I replated it like it was fine dining seen this. Yeah. So that was me. Was that you? I seen this. That was brilliant. I was bored. Yeah. Well clearly. So I replayed it. So I spend about 20 minutes on each dish. So it's like three dishes a day. And I did a before and after. And I think after

like day six, people started picking up people who were sharing that story. Um, and then like the Herald reached out and they wanted the scoop. But then that evening, Justinda Ardan reached out. She's like, "Can I repost this cuz everyone's so sad and angry at comparing it to prison?" And I was like, "What prison has a thousand count sheets? Like that's crazy." And um, so then I replayed all the food and I went viral overnight. I was like backtoback interviews. I went I was on BBC like the whole thing in my hotel room in in Wellington and um when I got out like some brands reached out and like hey have you like do you want to like promote this recipe or like do this

thing for $150 and back then I was like oh my god I've made it I've made it as an influencer and um and then I came out to my parents because I was all the hype at the moment you know I was like on TV and I was like by the way I'm gay and then like I read like you know and doing all this other stuff. Um, and so then I have always known that I was like I've wanted to be on media because everyone I surrounded myself with in my life has been like you were built for TV like you were built for like online presence or whatever. And it's like that quote that RuPaul has said. Okay. RuPaul was just like my

mother has said to me that you're going to grow up to be a star and because of that she's always believed it. Okay. got it, you know, and I've always believed that I was meant to be in media. Um, and so I think every micro decision I've made in life has like brought me to Yeah, for sure. Um, so then fast forward, we went we were in and out of lockdown. I was still cooking on social media and then um applications came around. I applied, I got in and the rest is kind of history. Yeah. Yeah, that is crazy. that the root pool quote is actually perfect because like I was even thinking the competitions like people who put themselves forward for competitions even that

mentality is someone who's destined to be in the limelight. Like people don't go after that unless they want to be recognized for certain things. So it's like it's already a mindset of you going like I want to be known for this thing and I I want people to know I'm the best at this which is the same as like going on to Master Chef. It's the same mentality. that Ruple quiz to sum up. That's crazy. I didn't know for like I didn't even know about drag race like you know during my coffee career but then I I always remembered that quote like being said around and I was like yeah it's so true though. It is such a true thing like um when you keep

on telling yourself something or getting told by other people you start to express it both good and bad you know and so it's like a real important thing especially as like a this is a bit of tangent but especially as like a leader of people like you can't say negative things to your staff all the time even if you don't mean it in a bad way like you're sort of talking about like criticizing like if you're trying to be like things that they could improve on it doesn't work like it's the you got to do the opposite on where they should like give them the positive side of opposed the negative side of it. Yeah. I mean, there's different like leadership kind of like not

rules, but like leadership ways that you could kind of um you know, uplift and a community, right? So, and I I when I was doing that in the coffee world, I did it through like I'm very good and I'm like, if you want to be as good as me, like just watch and learn and then you know that if you in front of me, Wait, can you swear on this? Yeah. Go [ __ ] swear as much as you want. Yeah. Yeah. So if you [ __ ] up a gun with me, you will know that I'm disappointed but I won't say a thing and you just have to pick that up and then that has like how I've fostered that like they they but that's the Asian parent

like you know it's a similar approach to me cuz I'm like so my dad's Pacific Islander and it's a real similar culture like collective community culture style and so I'm the same too like with these guys like they'll sometime you sometimes got to give them a stern word when you need to but like most of the time they're like Ian's disappointed in me like that's the worst feeling. It's the worst. But it's like, but you know, I don't need to tell you off. Yeah. I don't need to tell you off. You just know what to do next time. Be better. And you don't need me to berate you because it's not going to help. Yeah. You know, but just don't be better. Just be better.

Just be better. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So, master, if you want all the all the glitz and glamour of that. Um, so still waiting for that, by the way. Oh, you're still waiting for the glitz and glamour. Okay. Just the title. just the title. But then you like, you know, you went on to do a few things like you obviously released the book that was post winning, right? And um what was that like from then until now? You're saying like I'm still waiting for the glitz and glamour and and I and I kind of actually figured that a lot of people I've known who've been on reality TV shows and things like that. There's like this like anti-limax piece. It's not that the show's bad or

anything like that specifically. It's just that it seems much more glamorous when you see it from the outside. Yeah. And then afterwards you kind of like okay now what? So what has the last two bit years been like? Yeah, I think the last two two the last two years has very much been about like finding purpose, you know, and I think this is something that I think a lot of people especially like, you know, in their 30s are like trying to be, okay, how do I like want to exist in this world, especially as a que man of color, like how do I exist doing meaningful work? Um, you know, still practicing my passions and artistry. Um, and what's that fine line between being able

to pay rent but also upskilling myself? Um, so I think I've kind of tried to pave this like perfect medium of like I'm learning a lot about Chinese gastronomy and this is like been like I've been so passionate. I've never been this passionate about something since the coffee days where I was like really because the more you know and learn about something the more you realize you know [ __ ] about anything. Like like you could just ask me like what is Chinese food to you? I wouldn't be able to answer it because like I know so much but I also don't know any so I can't even answer that to you. Interesting. Yeah. So I'm in this journey at the moment. It's like okay Chinese girl

story me. Okay great. Why am I so passionate about it? And then I'm going oh like is it political? Is it to find purpose in existence? um is it to rid of xenophobia or like you know spread to the masses being like actually this is super complex and like let's not like hone down one cuisine because you're then creating a monolith of people essentially. So then I'm like, okay, is it all these things? And because I've pursued food in that kind of artistic way, and a political way, I've met so many other like uh East Asian creatives who make garments, who write poetry, who are storytellers, who u make pottery, etc. with the same lens and vision. And I was like, wow. like actually that

language that I formed in coffee was almost very specific to the world of hospitality but actually the way that I'm moving towards the moving the way I'm moving forward within the world of food and you know this like cultural um growing and exchanging cultural currency this has given me uh a larger community that I have never been exposed to before it you know and I was like wow I feel so much more enriched and I understand the world more, you know, but with more understanding obviously there's more heartache and like more you know like the more you know the more you're like actually this sucks like um but then the bigger the problem becomes right or the bigger the challenge. Exactly. Yeah. So you're like

aware of so many different things now. Um so I've always tried to like kind of straddle my way in the middle ground where it was like okay how do I make approachable content? how do I educate people on a very surface level but show them enough to be like I should change my mind on that you know so that's how I've always maneuvered um kind of all my work in the last two years and actually in my book um I've collaborated with six queer East Asian artists who are based here um I you know had to liaz with a cultural um expert on Chinese you know history here and you know and I I wanted to do it respectfully Yeah. Um, and you know, for

for many, this will probably be the first Chinese cookbook in their household. Yeah. And for many, maybe it's probably the first queer book in their household. Um, so it's like, how do I straddle this world, but still like being safe? Safe. Yeah. Yeah. But define that safe. That's an interesting ter word that you use. What do you mean by that? Yeah. I think safe means that like whatever you produce won't create immediate outrage, you know? Um but the like just knowing that my existence is that um even for the cover having me on the cover that was like a whole really thing in itself you know like if you look at Chinese cookbooks on the shelves nowadays most of them will just have bowling noodles

like I'm going to tell you that for free in fact and that was a pitch pitch to me you know and it's not because of like to the publishers ditch it's because that that's what works that's what works that's what works right and those familiarity and exactly and they're catering towards the people that but then if you look at like a salad cookbook it's it's these pretty white girls like holding a bowl you know and it's like not like but why is there a difference? Why is the difference? Yeah. I I have an interesting take on that actually. I think is that the it's like self-perpetuating data because it's always been done that way and so therefore we got the data to prove that that

works. It's not that it works, it's just that you've only done it that way. And then when everyone tries something different, they're like, "Oh, it didn't do as well." It's like, "Yeah, because no one knows that someone's got to lead. Someone's got to be the first to do it." And then change our perception of stuff. And so you see if you see more covers like this, then you're going to be like, "Oh, that's normal." Yeah. Therefore, it I I recognize it and it's familiar to me, so I I'll look into it. But I I I don't Yeah. I really hate when people say that as stuff. I'm like, "Show me the real data cuz the only data you got is that look, cookbooks of noodles

on the front work." And it's like, "Yeah, but there's that your data set's only got cookbooks of noodles on the front." It's like, and it's only three really, you know, like um you know, this has been the last Chinese cookbook of town in New Zealand in at least 20 years. Like it that's crazy. Is that really true? That's crazy. Yeah. And all the other ones have been independently published. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And that's like that's quite crazy because like given like especially for New Zealand for Chinese cuisine has like a lot of history here and although like it's might not be you know like we like probably with your cookbook and the way that we're seeing Chinese cuisine we're kind of exposed to more I

guess I don't know if authentic is the right word but things that are not being butchered from western uh culture but like there's still a lot of history of Chinese cuisine a lot of Chinese tourism tourism that's Terrible word to say for it, but Chinese immigration during that gold rush and everything. There's a lot of Chinese. That blows my mind to think that it's been 20 years. Yeah. Most ci would eat some form of Chinese cuisine weekly. Weekly. How is that not a more I'm shocked actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um well like you know the the you know the butcher Chinese that you're talking about that is called I like to call it survival Chinese cuz that is a form of Chinese food that they

were like okay this is what other people would want to eat from our culture and it's like cuz back then especially in America they had these segregation rules where you weren't allowed to do a lot of masculine jobs y so they weren't allowed to do a lot of um jobs that were taken away from Americans and so then they were only allowed to do really feminine jobs like laundry, um cooking, cleaning, you know, things like that. And um and those kind of rules did apply to here as well and in the UK. And so then a lot of the times people left China not as chefs. Yeah. They're not chefs. They left but they knew how to cook food. Yeah. Because you grew up in

the kitchen, right? And then so then they were like, "Okay, I'm not a chef. I'm not a great cook, but I know how to cook food that Westerners will like. sugar and they will come, right? So, sweet sour pork, your black bean beef, your super saucy vegetables on like overcooked rice like or deep fried wontons and things like that. Like this is survival food that like still has like its positives and it's negative kind of connotation within society today. But that that's its own category. You almost can't even call it Chinese. you know, and like um the more I'm like learning about it now, I'm like, "Oh, like this is so far from the gastronomy of China." Um so it's it own category, but then

now I think fast forward in the last like 10, 15 years. We've got all these like regional Chinese restaurants popping up and it's having a global impact at the moment. Like the amount of hot pot restaurants that are opening now, um you know, the the Sichuan kind of flavors um So, I mean like it's but those are just a glimpse of like Chinese history. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. So, I know I'm I'm really excited about this topic. I don't know how I got to this point. I love what we talking about. Who knows? But it's great. Like I could talk about food all day long and I love it and I love we got to it because it was shocking that in 20 years

only Oh, no one's no one's done that. And you're right like it start like because there's a big history of Chinese community in New Zealand. So it's not like it's something that even in New Zealand where it's not normal for us like it is normal for us. And then you're right like the explosion not just in New Zealand but like globally in Western countries this more regional Chinese uh food that's been presented to us I suppose. And I love it. Like I'm a big like my time in China was like the best the best uh the only other country that comes close to the food that I had was Korea. Okay. And the only reason for Korea is because uh I was with one of

my best mates is Korean and I was staying with him and uh this was before everything like digital apps and Uber and all that and like they just have these like menu books in their apartments and you can literally order anything you want. You ring them up and they deliver like in the crockery like it's room service to your apartment and you can get like anything you want in Korean. So he was just like mate just start picking stuff. We'll just order it all in. And we're just like eating all this food in the cold winter but sitting on his heated floor. And I just remember like the experience was so good. We just had all the and I was like, "What do you do

for now?" I like I'll just put out the door and I'll come pick it up. And I was like, "This is the best." Like this is the greatest thing ever. And so I just ate it was Korean. That's why um the Korean place and then I love the Korean barbecues and duck albby and stuff like that that we had. But in China in China when I was my my best memory of China is uh in Shanghai. I was a friend of mine was um he ran a hotel in Shanghai West and uh so it's like quite far from the city like it's actually quite far away and like when I went out there I was like wa this is like not Shanghai like this is

like a whole different place and then you'd take me to these like little like alleyways and you'd walk in and then this like big open courtyard with this the big long barbecues that the real skinny long charcoal barbecues they have and then you'd go into fridges and like pick all your skewers and stuff and I just remember like we went there every night I was like this is the greatest thing ever. Like, why isn't this thing everywhere? Like, and the seasoning they had on. I still remember they had these like um you know like the the bread the the white um I forget what it was called. Um the flatbreads or all your steam buns. Steam buns. Okay. But on skewers barbecued. Yeah. With the

the seasoning on it. And I was like I was like this is crazy. Oh, so you were actually quite in like inland. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because when you said Shanghai, I was thinking like vinegars and steamed fish. But when you were saying barbecue and and the spices that you're going Yeah. I was like fully in inland from it like cuz he was he was um he was running a hotel out there Holiday Inn that was out out west and he was like mate like we're pretty far out but you can stay with me for free like I'll put you up and I was like yeah I'll take a free hotel. Um and so I still went into the Bund and I went into main Shanghai

and stuff and still you know ate the dumplings and all the different and I did all that but and that was amazing too. That's a whole another story. Yeah. But I just remember sitting there. So you'd sit on like literally like crates the barbecue and you'd have your like they'd bring just like bottles of shining towel out and like and I was it was the greatest thing ever. And I was like why is this not something they've exported? Yeah. Like that is getting Yeah. Yeah. And now it is and that's what that's my point. It's like these these flavors that are coming out and that you're getting to experience that like like they're the best. Yeah. They're the greatest. And so I love that. So

I can talk about food all day. Yeah, that's what I love, right? The fact that you were saying you you were still in the same city, but because you were on different ends of the city, the food's completely different. Vastly contrasted. Yeah. Not even the same. Flavors are completely different. The spices they use, everything's different. Yeah, exactly. And so that's quite cool um that that is expanding and getting out there. Okay, so we're on a food journey. Probably not even what the podcast is meant to be about, but I don't care. I love the food too much now. I'm hungry. Yeah, 100%. I might order some food. Um, okay. So then what that leads me to go is like we talked a little bit about

like purpose and what that is then and like so and and actually was one of the things when you came in is like where what's what's happening this year? Like where are you going and where you moving to? Like how does that conversation not how where where are you missing the piece to tell you where to go next? because it sounds like there's a lot of purpose there and a lot of passion and drive around uh showcasing this cuisine and culture to the world, but not just in Chinese, but also about your sexuality and everything. There's a lot there. Where's the missing link of going having the really strong conviction on what to do next? I mean, this is where I'm stuck with at the

moment. Like, I I I don't actually know what I want to do and I I think a lot of it is like caring what the world thinks. Okay. You know, unfortunately, like that's kind of how it as you know, I I am a someone who perceives very confident, really strong, really like knowledgeable and um but ultimately the world is kind of against people like me, you know, and and knowing that in the back of every decision that you make makes it really hard, you know. I'd love to just like, you know, even the other night I was like, could I enter Rupaul's Drag Race if I like, you know, like really, you know, understood the practice? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, in this

cultural climate, I don't know. Um, and then I'm going, well, should I pursue this Chinese food thing? I'm like, well, but by the time I make that sustainable and as a career in New Zealand, like, how old will I be then, you know? And it's like and and trying to like think about time. Yeah. And in this like really unstable world, I think about social media. I think about the fact that it could just disappear tomorrow. And you know, actually at the end of this interview, check our phone. It's meta's probably closed down. We'll reboot it. You know, like we don't actually know. No, we don't. And because of that, I think the world is so unstable. The world history is repeating itself constantly. um

we're documenting more of the turmoil and because it's affecting a lot of my community, I see it a lot. Okay. Um, so that yeah, um, you know, but then I I keep going back to that there's like this Japanese philosophy where it's like if you dedicate a set amount of time to your practice, um, if you eat to your 80% full, if you practice mindfulness, um, you will be able to exist kind of in a more peaceful manner. And I think like you know, ever since doing like acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine and like understanding my own body, it's allowed me to think about myself rather than the world and its cultural context. Um, so that's been helping me a lot. Cool. In saying that,

it hasn't given me purpose, but I think the purpose is to just keep on like learning about this thing that I'm super passionate about. uh discovering what deliciousness means to me and my people. But I think ultimately going back to food being like, okay, why have I always wanted to cook? Yeah. Right. And and the main question is uh to form a closer connection with the people I care about the most. And it's as cliche as it sounds, but food does really bring a lot of joy to people. Absolutely. Because it's not just the shared activity. It's not just nourishing them, but you're allowing yourself to apart from food, there's nothing else that you really ingest collectively, right? Um and use five senses. So, I've

spent a long time trying to understand how we find pleasure in different scents. So, I spent a long time understanding smell. Yeah. um and how different molecules like make us kind of go that sounds that smells really nasty or that sounds smells delicious. But in textbook it shouldn't. You know, like if you think about amberree, it's vomited whale fat, you know, that's been fossilized. Um you know, a lot of the best perfumes use a lot of decay in in in a perfumeian aroma. We learn to love these smells. So, we can learn to love all foods. Yeah. It's like it's um Sorry to cut you there. It's I it was a thing that we did the other day is like foods in context changes to

your pleasure of that smell like the palmesin smelling like vomit and that if you smell palmesin it actually just smells like vomit but because it's palmesin it's the same molecule right it's the same molecules yeah so that that to to your point it's just like they learned behaviors learned experiences sorry to cut you off no but like so leading to that so it's like understanding how people function and why they like detest something or why they love something a lot of is cultural conditioning or uh just from growing up or being introduced to someone or something that someone that they loved showed them. Um and it's allowed me to understand like why people are angry towards other things, you know? So, it's actually helped me

to therapize other people. Got it. Do you know what I mean? So, it helps me maneuver the world being like if someone was yelling homophobic slurs at me, which I get constantly really, not in real life, but online. Okay. I was going to say in real love online and mostly through anonymous accounts. Yeah, of course. Always. Of course. And like, you know, I'm like, ah, like immediately it's not like, holy [ __ ] I'm getting attacked. It's actually like, oh, I'm so sorry that you're going through this thing in your life right now. Like, I feel so bad for you. And I think like how understanding smell, understanding taste, understanding like visuals and sound and and like different like strong opinions on these things allowed me to

maneuver the world. um in a way that like I won't take things to heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just said a lot of things there and I want to go back to some of them. One of them um I hear a lot of what I used to think which was um I started carrying a lot of the world's burdens on my shoulders of what I cuz I'd learn more right and you talked about this earlier that you start to learn a little bit once you learn and then you learn more and then you realize you know nothing but you also see this big challenge in front of you and now yeah exactly and so then you need to like soul for it all because you're

like I got to do something like I know this other people mustn't know this so I need to help. Yeah. And I was actually watching an interview with Mr. Beast yesterday with Colin and Samir and um he was talking about when he started his chocolate company that he like realized he screwed up a whole bunch and then people were telling him like, "Hey, you're just like perpetuating the slave trade of these kids like doing chocolate picking cocoa and all." And he's like, "Wait, what?" Like I I didn't even know. And then he so he went on this massive deep dive and learned every single thing about the cocoa industry. And he he and and the way he spoke of it was just like how you

just spoke about the Chinese cuisines and and everything. He has like this really good understanding now cuz he's talked to experts. He partnered with Tony's Chalone who are like trying to change it all and now he's like fully 100% ethically sourced and he's building this whole like stuff. But he's like, "As I started to do it, um I was like telling these farmers, no, like I'm going to pay you properly so you don't have to, you know, get these kids to be safe labor. You need to send them to school." And they're like, "There are no schools, so they're just going to do nothing anyway." And he's like, "Oh, [ __ ] Now I've got to build schools." And so he's starting to build schools cuz he's

like, "Well, I can't just like tell them not to cuz then these kids are going to be doing nothing and that's probably worse. At least at least in this village community, they're learning the skills to be take over from their fathers or whatever. So now I have to build schools and he you could see the weight of the burden that he's taken on because he's now got too much of and he's also got a lot of money and wealth that he could do things he could yeah change things change things and then what I what I learned about it for myself is that I'm not the obese and I don't have the access that he has. But I also realized that like as life went

on um I went through this stage of like I got to fix everything. And then I got to a point where I was like I'm actually not doing anything because I'm frozen because I there's too much in my plate if I want to go after it all. But actually I realized that I had to um understand that I can only focus on one thing and if I just focus on that one thing first which for me at the time was I need to build I need to fill my cup and once I've got a good full cup for myself and an ability to affect more things then I can take on the next project I can take on the thing and what it meant is

that I've picked a focus I could then do action and action built momentum and then momentum what we have now, right? Because it was like 2020 when I was sort of going through this and I mean and all the stuff happened. But um I I guess from my point of view looking at you like that's the same thing like is and and you'll know that because you've done it through some of the history you've said if you just take steps it doesn't matter what the step is actually as long as you're going one way. If you do nothing and you just go [ __ ] which way should I go? Like nothing happens. And I don't see you as that sort of person who does nothing cuz

it doesn't look like it doesn't look like mental. But it's almost like trying to get to a point where you can release the burden of all the things. Yeah. Right. And just be like, you know what, this one thing. So this one thing about um cuisine maybe, let's say, cuz that's probably where you've got a lot of knowledge on now. It's like just whatever that is, just go after it. And knowing that the other things I can work on like you're still young, like you still got so much time. That's the thing that's people struggle with. Yeah, you are. Like you're super young. Like I'm super young. Like I'm older than you and I'm still super young and I still think of it that way.

Like I kind of think like I don't have that. I think why I don't have that mentality that you're still young. Yeah. Yeah. I I I can I can sense it. You're like Connor who was here before. He's similar and I got a few people on the team that just are like I haven't got enough time. I've got to do all the stuff. I don't think you're really like that. A you're you're pretty chill. You're pretty chill. Yeah. You're not like that. I don't see it from you. But some of the other guys are like I've got to get all this stuff done. I've got I'm running out of time. And I was like that in my 20s for sure. For sure in my 20s.

And then once I hit 30, I started to understand that like, oh [ __ ] I've got at least two more of these lives yet left. At least two more. But I've got knowledge, money, influence, what all the things that I had had built over the years. Like that's ages. Like that's so much time. Like so much time. One thing that's helped me Yeah. that I've kind of started kind of living my life through is um and maybe in the last six months I've I've started to look at my life as a novel, okay, and been like chapters can be long, chapters can be really short, chapters can be one page and um but it's like it's always like you just question when you're like I don't

know what to do. You just go how do you want to live this chapter? And it's totally up to you. Yeah. And that has helped me a lot with being like should I message this person? Should I like say yes to this party? should I um go on the spontaneous holiday trip like and I always ask myself that question being like how do you want to live this chapter you know and that has helped me move through a lot at the moment that's great that's great advice and like I uh we had a lady Elaine who used to work for us used to say seasons like this is just a season like instead of chapter it's just a season that's changing but I sort of

have I didn't I never had a word for it but I have a similar mentality like and me and my wife have talked about how Um, like these last five years has been real like stressful building this business from nothing. Like we was in my mate's bear bedroom when we started and then we built it out and I we had to sacrifice a whole bunch of stuff for ourselves. We're like again big foodies travel like we love going around the world and doing all the things and that was our life before. We are like double income no kids had really good jobs like I was a GM of hotels. She was you know we had good jobs had our high-rise apartment in Melbourne. Like we

we're living the life. Sounds amazing. And then we quit and came here and did this and then co and then so we had to make a lot of sacrifices for what we loved. Yeah. But knowing that we're playing a bigger game and then it was that idea I was like look it's just like this this first five years period is about growth. We've got to just grow as big as possible so that then we can get freedom because actually the growth will give us freedom to be able to hire the people we need take. And it does and it has. Mhm. But it's the same for you. It's like it's like a chapter. It's like it's only going to be till here. It's and then

we've got 60 years left to live, you know, like with modern medicine today, if we look after ourselves, like we could be 90, it's ages, you know, like being in your 90s now, like for for 30 year olds living to 90 point isn't that farfetched, you know, whereas like people who are 80 now living to 90 is a big it's massive get for them to get another 10 years. But but for us, it won't be the same probably. Yeah. You know, there'll be I mean, I'm a Cook Islander, so I could probably die of my heart tomorrow. Who knows, you know, like in my family's history, but but like especially my wife like she her family is very healthy. Doesn't have a lot of like,

you know, so she could definitely live tonight. So we're like what's 5 years when there's 60 more, you know? Like there's so much. Wow. And you were only what? How old now? I'm 33. Yeah. So you're I'm 38 tomorrow actually. Hey, I turned 33. Not yesterday. Two days ago. Oh, that's funny. Happy birthday. I'm 38 tomorrow. Oh, wow. Here we go. We're a week apart. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. The producers like he's like, "Oh, [ __ ] I got I got to say happy birthday to my boss." Yeah. Tell the team. Um, no. No. I I I do truly believe that and I agree with your chapters. I think it's a real good way to look at it. I think people should have that mentality that

like this is just a phase or a stage or a chapter or a season and and then when they understand that how much is afterwards. It's actually a lot. And then I uh I've talked to people about same thing and they're like some people have gone oh it's only 60 and I'm like wait what? Like what? And they've they've taken the negative. So it's something to say. I there are people out in the world who some some reason take it the opposite way. I think when they take it the opposite, it's because it's like they've always tried to live in the future. Yeah. And the problem with that is like your first half of the book is boring. No one's going to read it. No

one's going to continue reading it. So for mine, like if it ends tomorrow, right? Um cuz meta um um then people I want people to be like, well, like, you know, from the start to whenever it ended, it's an exciting book. That's kind of how I want to live. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, that's that part. And then you talked about smell therapy. Yeah. And you talked about like what is all that I I guess this is the problem that you've got is like what does all that mean for a life? Like what do you do with that? Like what do you do with that knowledge of smell therapy and stuff? Like what does that become? Like how do you use that to live a life?

Like what it was for well it's it's to maneuver the world. Yeah. Honestly, it is it's purely for me you know. Got it. But in saying that, like I've done master classes with my friends. I've, you know, actually after this podcast, I'm doing a coffee master class in my apartment for my acupuncturist. Oh, cool. Because, you know, like she's studied western and eastern medicine. She's teaching me a lot about my body and how to like look after it. And she's always fascinated by this. So then I'm like, let's just share like what we know and and are passionate about. Um I've used my knowledge as currency y you know um and not not for money obviously but it's just like my friend uh who made

the garments for me to wear in the book. Okay. I would do smell sessions with him. We would like smell different things and uh we would talk about you know the cultural history of those things and you know I these little transactions bring me a lot of joy. Okay. Um, but I obviously feel like I want more. Yeah. And it's hard to get it here. Yeah. I think What does it mean to want more? Like for you specifically? Yeah. I think I want more of those type of um uh moments of flow. Okay. I think and interesting. Yep. If I said to you, when was the last time you experienced flow? When when would you say that was? Uh for me flow is the last

time it's it's work. It's workrelated. It's always like when I'm strategically planning for myself when I've got alone time. That's for me when I see it the most. I don't see it many other places. Right. Yeah. For me it's I because I'm I think I'm like an extrovert but also I believe in the woowoo stuff to like certain degree out of things. And you know a lot of what they've said about me is that I kind of channel my energy through people around me. Got it. So I can only interstate of flow with people around me. Got interesting. Yeah. And I'm really introverted by nature. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so that's the first. So, you know, the last time I really experienced flow was like I

remember at this party in Melbourne and I was just filled with all these hospitality like veterans and they were just like they were talking about their happiest memories and their triumphs and the hardships of like growing a restaurant or putting it on the Michelin star list and they just all like looked at each other and they like had a trickle of tear and I was like this conversation start at 7:00 p.m. and then I looked at the like phone again. It was like 12:30. Wow. And I was like that was flow. That's flow. Yeah. I I have hit that environment too which is cool. When new conversation you're like wait where did this 6 hours ago. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to explain. Okay. You

want some more of that? Okay. Got it. I'm trying to find that. Interesting. So if you know where flow is. Um okay. So what I'm trying to think about is like from you how does flow pay your bills? M you know like and I'm not saying it can't cuz I I think it can but for you how do you see that right cuz you cuz the world's not free as we know free um free stuff cost yes um it cost more actually to be honest um no so this is what I'm struggling you know I want to be I can see like how I could do the route that everyone expected me to do find a little restaurant turn into whatever my dream is and

then make money from that. That will break me. Yeah. You know that 60 years, that's going to be 30. Yeah. Yeah. So unlike the restaurant trade in the current climate that we're in in the House of Living of New Zealand, it's unsustainable. And every restaurant tour knows that unless you're the very few that has cracked it through the right marketing approach and selling fast turnover comfort foods. Absolutely right. Yeah. If you find dining, no one's no fine dining restaurant tour is going to be like, I'm thriving right now. Right. So, it's a passion project. It's a passion project. And then it's like, I'm not going to jump in the restaurant industry and then cook foods today's version of survival food cuz I don't want that,

right? That would just like kill my passion and I will be really sad, right? So then I'm like, okay, how do I still exist practicing what I am practicing, which is uh expanding knowledge, you know, um connecting with like-minded people who are often artists, uh who are taste makers and um work with people and brands that I really align with and truly love. Right. And so I think I'm in that stage now. I'm like waiting for the call. I know. Yeah. I pitch a lot to networks, but as much as you pitch and it sounds really optimistic, at the end of the day, you know, TV is a reducing uh number-wise like media platform, right? Um but it still holds a lot of weight. It

does. Um and respect. you know, I mean, I'd love to get one or two TV shows up and running where I host it, you know, and and there is a couple of pictures in the works, but um but things like that, it's like that doesn't pay that doesn't pay, you know, on the short term. No, be quite long career. So, I think ultimately it is getting money from the rich corporate corporate corporations. Um, and yeah, and yeah, it's going back to that thing where like you were saying like Mr. Beast is building like, you know, a school and blah blah. He's got the funding to do, right? He's got the privilege to do it. But also, that to me is white saviorship as well. Yeah.

You know, for sure. Yeah. So, it's like like another village is not going to look at that and be like, if we just keep doing what we're doing, that will happen to us. It's like no, no, no, no, that's not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. So, like for me, I don't want someone to come in and be like, "Here's $300,000, open up a restaurant, you know, like that sounds tempting, but ultimately like that to me won't be a dream of mine." No. Yeah. And I don't think I would have made a change by myself. No. I agree with that mentality, especially in a country like New Zealand, even Australia. Yeah. I don't think it's the right way because like the reason I don't think that

it's the right way is that investors in in this part of the world don't see investment the same way they do say in the states or in the UK where for a lot of them it's a moonshot like they understand I'm going to lose this money. Yeah. But I might 100x it. I might. And so I only need um two or three out of every hundred to go and I'm positive. Yeah. Whereas in New Zealand, it's like I need one of every two I give money to to go, you know, and it's they're really hard and it's harsh and it's hard on the person who's been given the money to really succeed because then everything's cost, right? You know, and they just and that's not

how good business run. You've got to really like let the person who's passionate do their crazy [ __ ] that they do, which is one reason we never talk investment because I'm crazy and the [ __ ] I do and the the decisions I make, even my wife's like, "You're a nutcase." It's like these are stupid ideas, but then they but because we persevere for long enough, they end up paying off. Yeah. And there's like that idea that like the best entrepreneurs in the world or the best actors in the world or whatever it might be are just the ones who never quit. Yes. Right. And they just keep on persevering through their crazy ideas. And so I agree with you that like taking investment for something like that,

even TV shows, is like kind of a hard gamble. And usually like is sped up and chewed out like you know they they what's the word chewed up and sped out is what I'm trying to say. Um but also who are the people watching during that time slot. Exactly. Whereas like like the thing I was thinking is like if you've got the way I would look at it is what pays my bills today to allow me to do something that's going to take me 10 years to build that retires me kind of thing, right? bit of simplified version, but like why not just build your own show? Like why not just like YouTube is the biggest streaming platform in the world. Yeah, that's something that

I was like considering like leaning into but I don't know what to do cuz there's so many recipe like I don't want to I don't like here's how to make you know you do know what to do. You know why? Because what did you do when you needed to figure out how to win the World Coffee Champion and when you tried to that that last round that you tried to do? What did what was your process to figuring out what I'm going to do at that coffee championship? Okay, I'm going to I'm going to spill the royal tea right now. Everything I've done, especially like in a large like competition platform or anything that was like a signifier for me, it's like how can I

not lose? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it's like how can I leave winning regardless? Yeah. So, even though I didn't compete in the last like competition, it gave me excuse to talk to all these masters who probably wouldn't like to talk to me for no reason. Um, and I've learned so much from those conversations and I'm still friends with most of them. And like I think for me it's always like how do I enter something and create the rules to the fact that there is no failure. Yeah. And I've always kind of walked in that Yeah, that's my point is that you did that. You made that mindset. Yeah. You have these relationships and you're able to talk to these people. That's how you figure out

what the TV show is. You do the same thing. Yeah. So, you go talk to all those people and you like you get all these great minds to lend their knowledge and experience to you and then you help get them to help you figure it out. You don't try to do it on your own just the same way you didn't try to do the coffee thing on your own. Yet, you shouldn't know on your own. like it's too hard to know things on your own. And actually, even if you did come up with a great idea, but you you should get it. You should shop it around. You should get people to pick holes in it and like give you ideas. And you already know

how to do that and you've got lots of contacts and you got lots of people. Just like do a thing like pick your most trusted put them in a room and say, "Guys, this is the goal I've got. I need help." Yeah. And you've probably got people who will do it with you. You know, and like I do we do that all the time. And as our business has grown, we do it with each other. Like I like we all like the guys can all ask each other and put a group of trusted people in a room. I do it for the business. I've got a bunch of mentors and people that I have and like as I'm trying to make the next step, I'm

like, am I right? Okay, I need to talk. And I think sometimes just like sounding it out with someone else is enough. Yeah. You don't even need them to say anything. You just need them to listen. And then like I'm not sure about you, but I'm a speak to think type of person, right? I can't just think internally inside my head fully. I can M but I but the more I speak about it say out loud the better my ideas form. Yeah I think I think me too uh especially with like the people I trust the most because they'll be like that's a dumb idea. Yeah. Yeah. Um I don't like I I think this is the year where I'm like I want to make

money not from New Zealand. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I like and there are people out there who are like doing way worse for way more money, you know? And I'm like, "Oh, okay." Like, actually, like there is talent here. I don't know what it is. Um, and I don't know. Do you have anything holding you to New Zealand for the next little while? I think a lot of it is family. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, family is a hard one. Yeah, family is hard. Yeah. Yeah. Have you got family that are like, are you got family that you're worried about if you went away, you might they might not be here when you come back? Yeah, literally. That's Yeah,

that's My dad's actually in hospital right now. That's hard. That's a whole different thing and I get that. But again, it's a chapter. Yeah, exactly. It is a chapter. Yeah. So, it's like a social responsibility. 100%. Um, and it's guilt. A lot of it is guilt. Yeah. You won't be able to do the things you need to overseas. Got that pain on your mind. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean that like I had a deep and meaningful with a really close friend the other night for my 33rd birthday. Um, after we came back from Vinger Boys. Oh, yeah. Um, wait. Vinger Boys was there. Yes. Vinger Boys was I didn't even know. That's amazing. They're like 50 and five. Oh, that's so good. I love

it. We were playing them the other day at work. They played boo three times. Wow. I don't Yeah. Um, so you and Mean was like, if you could change your life tomorrow, what would you do? And I was like, get a one-way ticket. But then it's it's that other thing, you know, and it's like, all right, like maybe it is this is the chapter of that life or that book, you know? I don't know. But um yeah, I'm just like, "Okay, how do I go viral this year?" Yeah. Yeah. By viral, I mean not haka girl and you know, not mudang, but like more so like if you typed in Chinese food, my name will show up. That's how I want to be seen as

like viral. I don't want to be seen as the master chef guy or the coffee guy. You know, I moved on from coffee guy, but I was known as that. Um so now I'm still like known as master chef guy, but now I'm like, okay, how do I become another thing? Yeah. Is there like a angle about Chinese food you can take that you know will both excite and upset people because that's always a good way you know like it it's divides the public but in a good way. Like it's not so bad like dividing them. Oh, you might choose a racial way to do it but um something that's like it's like it's like this is a terrible example but Samsung versus Apple, right?

Like there's like it divides the public but not it's not a real it's not a real rival. It's not real rivalry but a devised public that cause it. So you can do it that way or you can literally just be like quite antagonistic but then there's a big portion of the population who's who agrees with you as well. Yeah. Is that's like I mean that was hu that was the same thing. Yeah. Right. Right. It's like should a young woman speak like that publicly? It was like the bad side of it and the other side of it was just like this is funny, this is crazy, blah blah blah. Yeah. Kind of thing. Well, I mean, I think what I'm really blessed with is communication,

and I think like I've um been able to take any topic that I've learned a lot about and and transfer it to a variety and a contrast of different types of people. And I think that was my thing. So I was like, okay, maybe how like how do I um, you know, spread the awareness and and educate Chinese gastronomy to a large group of people because it's like a lot of the people I look up to, like I know that my friends and my followers would not want to listen to because it's like monotonous or they're not relatable. they you know like I present as a really passing basic person um you know living in a modern world but um I have taste but I

also love dumb [ __ ] you know so it's like I think I'm really relatable in that sense so I think yeah by taking expertise and like promoting it like that's kind of how I want to go forth I think you just got to do something yeah thanks just doing just just pick one and do it you know like and and and actually this is the year for me to do it 100% just try stuff like throw [ __ ] at a Like that's what our approach is to so much. Like so much of my success has been having the confidence to just throw stuff at a wall and like a lot of people I can't believe you're doing that thing and then a year later like how did

you do that thing? Yeah. How did you do it? I want to do it too now. You know I've got I've had that many times like I don't know if you know but like we also have a show called the dating point. Um it's a separate show and it's like a it's a dating show where we have we get people like the Covert Theater um just impossibly here. We have 80 80 people in the crowd and we bring people up blindfolded and they date blindfolded and then wait I think I've seen this. Yeah, it's it's huge now. It's like we've had like I don't know 40 million views. Oh my god. And I have seen Yeah. And like people like then they vote blindfolded if

they want to have a second date. And if it's positive or or negative after that someone from the crowd can steal can try to shoot their shot and so that you just found love and then someone else comes and I can do this. got away. And anyway, it's a kind of funny show, but my point of the story is is that when we started it, people like, "What are you what are you doing this for, Stan? You're a idiot. Like, you're a marketing agency. Why are you making a dating show? This is so dumb." And it must cost you a fortune. And it did. Last year, we spent about 170 grand trying to produce it. We produced uh I don't know 30 something shows. And

it's all on YouTube and stuff, right? But then towards the end of the year, it it cracked and went off. Yeah. And we just grew all the followers and viewership. And then in January, um we for the first time we sold tickets to it which sold out uh like two weeks early and then we got a big alcohol brand who sponsored us for it as well that paid for everything. Um and so now we've also started we've got venues booked in Sydney and Melbourne for March and tickets already selling for that and that like so we've got this whole thing for how it now monetizes and grows exponentially. But that was only because I had the courage to try throw stuff at the wall. Amazing.

Sick at it. Yeah. Has anyone actually found love? Yeah. I mean, [ __ ] we had this one guy, his mate, um, who found love with a girl and then Yeah. and then found more love with her out in the car park. That's true love. That's true love. And then they split up and got into a fight and then the same night. The same night. And then a whole it was hilarious because we filmed three episodes a night and so they were the first or second or something and then in between the intermission this all happened and then there was a fall out and then she wanted love and he's like no I just like I just want to play. I just want to play. So it's

a whole relationship. Yeah. It was it was so funny. And we had to like all the footage we had of that like cuz we had the footage on stage but then we had a lot of behind the scenes footage of them not doing anything but the domestic and all the whole thing. So, we had that whole arc, but we couldn't do it cuz she was like, "Please, I'm so embarrassed. Like, I'm so embarrassed." And we like, "Okay, we're not going to do that." But we are keeping everything that's on the stage because that happened. Um, so anyway, my point of the whole story is like just try [ __ ] you know, like and I think you're the type of person that when you start to try

stuff, you'll you've got so much knowledge and expertise that you'll just go, "Okay, that's that step. That's that step, that's that step." And the next thing you know, it'll be 12 months and you're like, "Oh, like I've got this show that I built myself." Okay. Can I picture something like I mean like I've always liked the idea of vlogging. Okay. You know like my dayto-day cuz I think my life is quite interesting and quite exciting and I think like cuz I interact with a lot of like brilliant taste makers right with who have no money but like are incredible and like we have the best chats blah blah blah. Do you think like doing like weekly vlogs are fun? I think that the vlog concept

has evolved now to a point where um so YouTube's evolved so much that the weekly vlog like a long form vlog has to be centered around a specific topic not your life. So like for instance like it might be like what or like let's the smell's an interesting one right? So let's say uh we this is a stupid topic but um we smelt the 10 worst smells in the world and then you still do a vlog. You still do a vlog. It just so happens one part of the vlog is that you smell the 10 worst things in the world. But if there's no reason for me to click on I don't care about you and your life. Like that's what people are thinking. There's

so many vlogs I can watch. Why should I watch your one? Yeah, but you Oh, that's interesting. The 10 worst smells in the world. I mean, that's a clickbait [ __ ] Like, people click on it, but if you actually deliver episode on that. Well, you don't I smelt the most expensive thing in the world. Maybe. Okay. So, it's like, okay, it doesn't always have to be smells. It could be eating. It could be anything. It doesn't have to be smells, but like obviously makes sense for you. Yeah. But it gives me a reason to watch and then I get to see your vlog and your life. And then now I build this parasocial relationship with you, right? But I actually clicked on you for the 10

smells. you have to deliver me the thing that you said you're going to deliver. Yeah. And I have to know that it's coming cuz it won't be straight away and so I have to know the whole thing. Yeah. But uh if you do that, that's that's currently the best way vlogs are going off. The second way is um there's a couple people who have just gone super cinematic and they've just like made their life into a movie every episode and they're stunning like and they're just great cinematographers themselves and they just they're all filming themselves. There's a life of Riz. She is outrageous. Like so far so good that she like put um a package that she'd received like in her mail behind her and

it had an address and a QR code on it, right? Cuz Amazon deliveries type thing and people like, "Oh my god, I can't believe you put your address. Like we all know where you live now." And she's like, "Put it in." And then it sent them to like a local McDonald's and like the QR code like made them sign up to something and things like that. So she had like planned every little bit knowing people would react to her address being bin and stuff and then she made it like a a rabbit warren that they had the rundown but her everything's cinematic. Beautiful. So there's that where people are like I'm watching a movie actually a movie or and that's a real interesting topic. I

do want to know what the 10 worst smells in the world are. So let's go have a look. And then because you've taken them through a story they've um they start to build a relationship with you. Right. But YouTube the way it works is that everything's standalone. You can't have a like serialized dramas and stuff on YouTube don't really work, right? You know, because because I might click on episode 12, right? But I might get 12 before I get given eight. Yes. So, I don't know. Oh, that makes sense. You know, there's no like I don't watch eight and it rolls into nine. It's not Netflix. Yeah. I watch eight and then it might suggest me 14. I just don't know. Or it might just

suggest a different show. Yeah. You know, so um it's a recommendation algorithm. So you've got to make sure that's you got to make sure that your whole episode is locked into one episode. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that would be my So vlogs are great. I mean I watch lots of people who do vlog content, right? But that's how they do it. Okay. Nowadays. And that will change. So that will change tomorrow. Yeah. Cuz people getting bored of it and whatever, but but I like vlogs. I think the thing that people get with vlogs is that they're actually way harder than you think. It's way harder to set. It's real hard. Yeah, it's real hard. I do like I I do the I call them daily vlogs.

They're not really vlogs, but they're just like I do a daily video on my uh Tik Tok and Instagram and and LinkedIn that's just like talking about parts of my life. Mhm. And I do it more as a habit thing to put stuff out, just to have stuff out. And then every once in a while, I'll put a bit more effort in in the video take off. But my point in telling that story is like it's just about doing something. Just the action will lead to the bigger thing. Yeah. So whatever you try to do, just do it. Yeah. Yeah, you want to do it just um Well, yeah, to be honest, like that supermarket series came out of like a accident really and now

it's like booming. It's a whole genre. Yeah, I started um uploading some of the episodes on cuz Tik Tok was going to close for 10 seconds and um and then everyone was like moving to Shiaungu, which is Red Note, and I was like, "Oh, maybe I need to jump on this." And then I uploaded like 12 episodes, right? I've got like 50 now. I've got like 20k on really on on Red Note like followers and I'm like but all the comments in Chinese I'm like I can't read Chinese like okay it's funny but like I'm like oh so like the content is good so I'm like oh okay but I don't know it's yeah I'll figure it out this year figure it out just do

something just do something I love it and I like and and if you ever need anything like studio wise you just hit us up that's the other space is going to be a full studio we love having people in doing stuff, working with people, doing cool [ __ ] That's our whole business purpose is to do cool [ __ ] Okay. So, anything you need just listener. Okay. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming to podcast. That was cool. Thanks for having That was cool. That was a really interesting uh I haven't had a guest on who got as philosophical as you just did with some of the things that you talked about like your thoughts and I like it. It's a good conversation for me.

Uh it's the type of conversations I like. So, thank you so much. It's just like what I think on the daily. Like when I'm driving, I'm like, "Okay, how do I end racism?" Yeah. And also, what am I having for lunch? Yeah. At the same time. At the same time. Yeah. That's how my brain works, too. So, I totally get it. So, I was very stimulated by that conversation. Thank you so much. That was a pleasure. is