Life After Radio: Jay-Jay Feeney.

The world has gone so PC and I blame social media. How did that come about? That's a pretty niche business to build. You need to be a good interviewer. What is it that you can get out of this person that no one else can? What do you think are the problems with all the podcasts that are popping up at the moment? Why people aren't getting the reach? You are not going to be the next Joe Rogan overnight. You hear that? You hear that? Yes. Yes. I'll do it. I'll do it. After 35 years, JJ has gone out on her own, left radio and started her own business. And in today's podcast, I really like press on her. What does that actually mean? What has she

learned? And how is she growing? Put her into a couple of uncomfortable positions. But actually, I think some of the lessons that she shares with around podcasting and running a business for the first time are super valuable and I think you'll enjoy it. All right. Well, let's kick into it. JJ, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to be here. Let's go. So, as I said off camera, we um are going to dig into a little bit about where you are now. I don't think it's really a lot for me to dig into your past cuz I think you've done that well enough. If anyone actually cares, they could just Google it. They can Google it. Exactly. There's

enough out there. Um if people don't know you, um I'm sure they'll figure it out once they click on the links that we'll put into this podcast. But I kind of want to ask like you've this is life after radio. Like you're in that stage now. It's only what been a year. Not even. Not even. Right. I left radio in July 2024. Yeah. And I had a month off and then started opening a podcast recording studio which we officially officially opened on the 1st of October. So it's only been a few months running that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh god. It feels like a long time though. I must say it does feel like a long time for me too because um I heard about you doing

it. Well I mean it was pretty public cuz you're pretty public. Um and that seems like so long ago. I've been to New York and back since it's happened and all sorts of stuff have happened. But I kind of want to just start on like that feeling after was it 35 years or so in radio like which is essentially a 35 year long corporate job essentially right because of the size of the media companies. It's a lifetime. It's a lifetime. How was like how did you what was the deciding factor for that? How did that happen? And then oh I honestly I was just over it. I was exhausted. Okay. And like the landscape has changed so much. And way back when I used to

be on the edge, we had so much freedom to be creative and to be fun and to entertain people, which I love doing. And then, you know, the last maybe eight years, 8 to 10 years, the world has gone so PC, you know, and I blame social media and because everyone's got a microphone. So everyone who's got a complaint will just go online on their socials and complain about it cuz they think their voice is so relevant and it's like shut up. So because all these people who complain complain complain, they've changed the whole um culture, the whole culture. So now we're all really careful not to upset anyone and you know and it's just actually ruined entertainment as far as I'm concerned. So I

started getting quite bored. I thought this is just not challenging me anymore. I I get told you can't do that. you're too, you know, it's too edgy, you've got to be more family friendly. And I'm like, oh my god. Okay. So, I guess just a few years of that, I just felt like, what am I doing? I'm not I'm not achieving anything that feels meaningful to me. Yeah. So, so um you went out and started a podcast company. Okay. So, like how did that come about? Because that is like it's a pretty niche business to build first of all. Yeah. And I obviously I understand the connection to radio. It makes sense. There's a set of skills, but like that's a pretty niche business to

do in New Zealand of all places. Yeah, I know. I think the re the real reason it happened is because my ex-husband Dom, who we are still friends with and we started the company. So, he has a podcast and he's been filming it in his spare room at home and he's got a couple of friends that do podcasts from outside of Oakland, overseas, whatever. And they'd come to New Zealand said, "Oh, I need somewhere to record. can I record in your spare room? And he's like, "Sure." And he said to me, "Oh, we I should get a studio that that I can let rent out to other people." Yeah. And so that's how it first started. And so he started looking around to see if

there was something that came up. And it was actually um the week after I resigned. Yeah. He's the place that we leasing now came up for lease and he said to me, "Oh my god, this place is up for lease." I thought, "Oh my god, I was going to have three months off and then decide what I wanted to do with my life." But it's sort of like, you know, you got to strike while the iron's hot. So, we said, "Oh, God, let's just do it." And there was already a a studio in there. It needed work, but it was in there. And um we just thought, "How hard can it be?" And Yeah. So, we just And how hard is it then? Well, actually,

I mean, it's so completely different to what I'm used to. I'm used to being told what to do my whole life. You know, I work for the man. I expect to get paid every two weeks. And but this this is like a whole lot of skills I had to learn overnight basically and it's been so fun and it hasn't been too terrifying. The terrifying thing is that I haven't earned any money since I left radio only I have to you know a couple of times you might see me on my Instagram with an ad in the caption uh because that's how I make money at the moment. Um because you know it takes a while for a business to break even even. Um, but it's

just been it's been wild. It's been cool. That's interesting. Hey, I I was wondering that too actually like cuz it is such a niche product and and I know cuz we we produce podcasts for our clients as well. Not they're more like businessy podcasts that they kind of do as part of a larger marketing thing. Yeah. But like it's a pretty fickle like thing to do. And I was wondering like how how are they going to like necessarily like replace their income like cuz you you I don't know what necessarily you get paid in those spaces in radio but doing it for that long you must have been earning decent money for your career and if not then [ __ ] the media company's really bad shape

but like replacing that is probably not I I I assumed that you hadn't yet. No no not at all not a single scent. No, exactly right. But I had some backing some, you know, I was able to cash in some of my retirement savings and, you know, and Dom is earning money from his podcast, so I sort of sponge off him a bit, you know. So we we just we're getting by and it's fine. So we we're lucky that we are in that position. You know, we're in our 50s, so we're mortgage free now, so we we are able to get by on less money than we've earned that we're used to earning. And like I've just worked out that you don't actually need that

much money. like your happiness and mental health is so much more important and I wish that I had done this years earlier because I was miserable for the last few years and now I'm like woohoo no money don't care got myself a free coffee here so there we go we'll give you one on the way out as well yes please I'll heat it up in the microwave later yeah I actually think that's quite an interesting thing for people to get because most people would have looked at from the outside going you know you got the brand behind you and Dom and um would have thought oh they're doing this big new thing and it must be successful because they just would have passed that success

of your career on to it. But actually business is a grinder. It takes a long time. Like how does that feel for you to know that actually this is something that I'm going to grind down. It might take a few years before it even gets close to replacing what it was. Like how like you say you're feeling happy. Is that like is that just how it feels? Yeah, I feel happy and I feel hopeful like so I know that it's going to be a struggle financially, but I can see the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You know, I can see that it's growing. It's a growing industry podcasting. So it is quite small in niche and there are only a few

little podcast studios around but there are going to be more podcast studios and there are going to be more podcasters and a lot of businesses like you like you say businessto business is one of our our biggest clients are businessto business podcasts um because you know that's it's a new it's a marketing um it's another marketing asset that you need basically. Yeah. So I'm not I'm not worried. Yeah. I'm happy. And we we're working at quite a slow pace as well. Like I don't want to go all balls in and stress myself out because I get overwhelmed easily. So we're probably taking it a lot slower than we should. Like you know, we're not like going out there supermarketing or anything like that or hustling

for clients. We're just sort of seeing how it goes. And then we're starting to slowly find where the need is and that's what we're sort of focusing on. So like some businesses wanting us to help them with the content and stuff. So that's where Dom and I can be creative and you know we're just working it out as we go. Yeah. Yeah. Um what do you think that you say you can see the pot of gold at the end? Yeah. What is that pot of gold like? Where does it come from? Where where where is this leading to then? Okay. Well, I just hope that we make enough money to um pay me and Dom and all of our you know like staff are expensive.

I'll always look after them first. So, just want a profitable business that just, you know, that can support itself and has enough that we can grow and and become bigger and be able to provide more um options for people, you know. We want to be able to help people make the best podcast they can. And you need money to do that, you know. So, in the end, I guess you retirement's not that far away. I'd like to just be able to retire happily knowing that something I did another thing that was successful and hopefully have enough money that I can go and lay on the beach somewhere every now and then or I don't know play golf or whatever old people do. I'm not move

to the sun, play golf. Yeah, I'm not interested in that at the moment, but you never know. No. Well, if you are, my wife will happily play golf with you. She loves all she does really these days. Now, I'm like I I realize that I'm a bit of a slave, aren't I? Like I go to work all day, do like 10 hours a day, work my ass off, and then she's out playing golf and I'm like, "Fuck, I got the wrong end of this stick." But good idea. Oh, she is. I mean, she works her ass off when she needs to and and she does, but she's actually like, I don't want this. You wanted this, so I'm going to go play golf. Good on

you. At least she's happy. The last thing you want is an unhappy wife. 100%. And that was pretty much the point of us doing this business. So, similar to you, it was like, how do we go out and do whatever we want when we want just to be happy? Because I was the same in corporate in hotels. It's just like, this is a [ __ ] fight. You keep telling me, "No, I know I can do this better than you." Yeah. Or at least I can do this better than you're allowing me to do it right now. Um, which I guess I I still want to press on a little bit because like I'm still unsure about like how does this thing grow as a podcast studio

to the size that it needs to be? And do you see it just being a studio that produces or do you see it as being like long-term like a media arm as well? Like you know you got Dom's podcast and what that's doing and then you know you can look at the guys over at you know and what they're doing with their podcast and how they're building a media like what does this grow into? Is it purely this podcast year that helps people produce podcasts or is it a media arm as well that you have your own radio? I feel like it will become more of a media arm. Yeah. Like you've got to start small, right? and I can only manage a podcast studio

at this point. But, you know, people ask us, "How can I get more listeners? How can I make money?" Those are two things that people ask us the most. So, we're going to get to a point where we have to have someone who works in sales and has someone who works in the marketing of our podcast. So, people pay us to rent the studio. Y, but they want more than that. They want help making their podcast better and awesome. And, you know, that's an all round service. Not many places offer it. Um, so we want to be like a one-stop shop where you can get everything you need to make a successful podcast. And that's just because personally it's satisfying to me to be able

to help people and help people create things like this. But I just also see there's a need. So if there's a need, we'll try and make it happen. But it's not going to happen for a little while obviously cuz you know it takes time. Got to get the money. Cost lots. you need a few more people recording their podcast and um but you know we're already opening a second studio so we our space is tiny but so the control room is quite big so we actually taking the control room out into the lounge and building a studio with interchangeable backdrops and furniture and we've actually just had our back first backdrops arrive last week and they are stunning I love that stunning it's a whole

new wall and they're being made by a guy who did the set of Survivor So he's made all the you know the what do you call the torches and the and the immunity idols and the and the sets for all the challenges and stuff and he's making these backdrops for us and uh it's gorgeous. So we're able to offer we'll be able to offer soon chance for people who want their who video means more to them to have their own little their own look rather than the same boring round table in a black studio or with a white curtain, you know. So, um, we realize that visual is becoming so important as well. So, we're just looking I don't I even forget your original question.

I've waffled on. Sorry. I think I had no clue what I asked, but I think Oh, yeah. You know, if it's going to become a media arm, so I just think it will it will just grow into what it has to grow into. I think I um I want to ask that because you talked about then, well, we're going to people got a need. We're going to solve for that. What do you think are the problems with all the podcasts that are popping up at the moment and why people aren't getting the reach or audience that they deserve or want? Um, well, a lot of a lot of people think they can do a podcast. You know, I can talk you actually do do a

great podcast. You're awesome. You're one of one of the few. Everyone thinks they can do a podcast and we even have clients that they come in and they do their podcast and I'm watching their or listening to their podcast thinking, "Oh gosh, you know, I'd like to help you with that." Obviously, we can't just give everyone the full service without them paying for some of it. So, unless you want my advice, I ain't going to give it to you. Yeah. Um I for big jobs. Um I just think Yeah. I think a lot of people expect that it's going to do really well and they're going to be the next Joe Rogan overnight. We tell everyone that comes in to see us, you are not

going to be the next Joe Rogan overnight. You're not. You even the best biggest podcasters. Joe Rogan took 10 years to become Joe Rogan. Dom Tom Dom Harvey finishes on the edge. One of the highest rating radio stations at the time, one of the most uh you know, award-winning radio announcers. He starts a podcast. You'd think overnight he would be successful and all the listeners would come over. No, it took at least a year before he started feeling like he was getting any momentum and he was interviewing some big big names. So podcasting is a long game and I think people just have to realize that and not think Yeah. unrealistically that you're going to be this big star overnight without any coaching. Yeah. Without

any help, without any great marketing. Yes. Your social media clips are important and some people have some [ __ ] ones. Yes. Yes. You know this 100%. We've had plenty of [ __ ] ones as well. We all do. Yeah. That's part of the learning, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we can't say that we're the best at, you know, the most expert at it, but we have expertise in it. So, sometimes we're going to be on fire and sometimes we might miss. What What are some of the lessons you take from radio to this? because like I think that there is a natural like there's a natural link obviously between them not just in the fact that you're talking into a mic but the way that a show's produced

as well like a podcast most podcasts that we've created in the past um we didn't think about producing the show at all we just thought let's put two people in the room and ask some questions and then we realized like later on like years later we're like that's [ __ ] stupid isn't it like what's the bit out of it like what's the story that we're getting out of it but like so what are those lessons from radio as you bring into um the podcast world that you can use like because obviously the edge and all the other places that you guys have been part of have been super successful as you said. So why are they successful and what can you learn as a podcaster from

radio? I think first of all planning is so important and you have to really like it sounds like you're just ad living and it's all off the cuff but you really need to plan. So, not not script. Yeah. But just know where you're going and know what the end goal is and know uh what are the what are the outtakes you want from this. What are the things that are going to hit, you know, hit people? Yeah. And then so that's super important. And um like story arcs as well if you can do them with a podcast. Um and connecting with people. Yeah. So it's easier in radio because people can call in. Yeah. Okay. Okay. and and and they're right there and you go

on promos and you're out there meeting the fans. They come to you. You know, it's it's different when you're a podcaster. You're not going to do a meet and greet like get three people come up. Stan's explaining live on the corner of Pon Road and Richmond Road this afternoon. It's not going to happen. But but you can connect with people being more active on your social media. Um, and just showing in your podcast the type of person that you are that that so people feel like they can trust you, that they like you, they can listen to you, you know, and that's generally why they do listen to you. Yeah. Once you once you've got those regulars, you know that you've you've won them over,

you've got that connection that's just so powerful. So, those are the two things that I learned from radio. Interesting. Um, what about the show itself? like you know like this there's a bajillion interview podcasts out there people just like getting two people and actually like you talked about how Dom got some pretty big names on it but actually like that doesn't matter in the podcast world like you could have I've seen podcasts with say even like Mr. beast on it like a thousand views on YouTube because who was the person you don't know but like these interview podcasts when people are doing them um what can they do to fix these things like and and look you might not have all the answers right now

as this business is really new for you but like what do you think some of the issues with interviews interview podcasts I just think that not everyone's a good interviewer they're not they have to be a good listener so listening to what the person is saying forget the questions I've written Now, you know, I we say this too to our podcasters, don't you know, the questions are a guide. Yeah. And like maybe have one in your head. So, if you get stuck, you know, to go to it next, but you got to listen to what they're saying and you can go off on tangents. Like you might not even a good interview, you won't even ask any of the questions you got written down. We

had this is the same in radio. Yeah. It's you get a chemistry with the guest. If you've got a chemistry with the guest, it's going to be a great interview. cuz we interviewed some pretty big stars on the radio and some of them were just unbelievable. Like that was awful and totally not memorable. And then you have people who you who surprise you, who you don't think is a big star, but the interview just goes off. It's the same in podcasting. The big names aren't necessarily going to what they'll do is they'll bring attention to your podcast. Y but you've got to be consistent. So sure you got a big you're gonna talk to um I don't know Dan Carter Graeme Henry whatever an all

black any all black will get you hits right but but how good is the interview someone's going to listen and they if they like the interview they're going to come back to maybe another one but if the interview is average doesn't matter who you've got on you need to be a good interviewer what is it that you can get out of this person that no one else can what's going to be what's going to make my interview different cuz I noticed like Dom Tom Dom's interviews you He interviews like he interviewed Steve Williams and so did Between Two Beers and Steve Williams is doing the interview circuit because he's got a book out. Yeah. So what's going to make anyone listen to Dom's podcast if

they can listen to it on Between Two Beers or read the story in the Herald or listen to it on Neb? You have to you have to have something different and it's actually not a learned skill. Like you can't just I can't just tell you what that skill is. You have to you have to learn it. You have to it's experience. It's experience. Yeah. It's it's hard. So, you either got it or you haven't, I reckon. Yeah. That's kind of the answer that I kind of thought as well. I'm coming for myself. Like, this is our third year doing this podcast and uh if I go back and watch some of the first ones, I still know there's lots to learn from being an infield.

Like, I haven't done it for 35 years. I've done it for three. But I realized that I was literally just going through a chronological order of events trying to get some story out of it, but never had any like I was all aimless with it. And this season, something that I've tried to do is go what do I actually want to know about this person rather than like what is the thing that everyone else is talking about. I just wanted like I actually really do want to know about your business and how it's going. And for two reasons. One, because it's like not too dissimilar from part of our business. Yeah. Right. It's not we're obviously very different lanes in the way we look at

it. Yeah. But it's really interesting to like understand how other people are going through their business. So if you were to critique me at all in that approach and like me wanting to find out what I'm interested in, is that am I doing a disservice to my audience because I'm not really worrying about them. I'm only really caring about what I want to talk about. No, because you are you are it starts with what you want to know, but also then you have to think uh what what about what I want to know is also going to be something that they want to know. So, it's always got to be outward facing. Yeah. But you've got to start with inward facing. So, you're asking the

curious questions you want to know that your audience probably hasn't even thought of. And actually, so you you know, you're spoon feeding them obviously. Yeah. Are they going to be interested in the same things? And generally the answer is yes because you you have to be passionate about something for other people to buy into it. And so I I get you are very passionate. You have this natural uh easy way about you. You're a natural interviewer. So, you actually are born with the gift. Okay. So, from what I can see, there I can see. And you'll just get better and better. Like you'll look back on your early interviews and you will cringe. Yeah, I do. But you had to do that to get to

where you are now. And you still you'll look back on this in 3 years and cringe probably. Yeah. Because you're just going to get better and better and better. It's just Yeah. I know you what you're doing is it's a conversation that we're having instead of an interview. Yeah. So much. And you know just about every interview I go into and this is one of the reasons why I hate doing them is because I get asked the exact same questions every time. It drives me batty cuz I'm like surely you have already googled this and know the answer. What? Like what? Why does anyone care like you know? Yeah. How I got into radio who's my favorite interview guest or whatever. They're just so they're

shallow things. But you you want to get into people opening up their thoughts, their minds, and and giving you some some intel on their life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I talk too much as well, by the way. No, I do it when I'm nervous. I'm sorry. I have been trying to focus on that all year with these podcasts is that like I actually don't give a [ __ ] what your favorite guest is on radio. Like it doesn't really excite me at all cuz it's like Oh, but it was Tom Cruz. Oh yeah. Well, there you go. [ __ ] There we go. There's the hot take. But the next question is, is he as crazy in real life? Yeah. And like the thing is is that I'm not here

to interview Tom Cruz, you know? Like I don't really care. Like I if I was interviewing Tom Cruz, I'd be cool. I mean, [ __ ] that'd be phenomenal. Oh my god. Yeah. But it's not what I'm here for. And you're right, like I'm I actually I'm trying to find out what is something that you can give me that helps my journey as well as like kind of like the way I kind of go into it. And um it's been a real interesting thing actually. It's been quite good. Like the feedback I've gotten from all the guests this year is finally someone asked me questions that wasn't maths or someone asked me questions that wasn't this or that when he asked me something else. We had um

Alex King on who was just like, "Thank you for not asking me at all about my dad like at all in the thing." I was like, "Well, if your dad was here, I would have interviewed him, not you." And I wasn't. And as I've been going through it for the year, I've been wondering I've noticed that my clips and stuff haven't had some of the virality because I haven't talked about the pop culture piece that is it. So, I understand that there's like a reach piece there, but I think the depth of the conversations I've had with people online through the content has been better. like there's a lot more depth to the conversations as opposed to just people going, "Oh, this clickbait piece around

Alex's relationship with her dad and blah blah blah blah." You know what I mean? And so, I don't know if it's right from a reach perspective and growing a podcast, but I think for me as an interview, it's so much nicer actually. Yeah, it is nicer, but you do need the clickbait as well. Clickbait. Yeah. Yeah, you do. Yes. Like, how else how else are you going to draw them in like in a few seconds, you know, cuz our attention span is so short. So that's why those social media clips are so kind of clickbaity, but it doesn't have to be scandalous. It can just be leaving you wanting more. It just has to leave you wanting more. Yeah. And Yeah. Is that something you

think about when developing podcast? Even if it's like an interview like this, for instance, and let's say the roles were reversing, you're me, would you be trying to find something to get that reaction as you're going through the interview? Um, or is it a post-production thing? No, in your preparation. In your preparation, you want to just really think what you what are the touch points going to be like what is so interesting about this person or what what do I really want to know about this person? And those are generally what does this person really think about this certain thing? There has to be a couple of those Yeah. those those moments so that you've got something to hang on. Yeah. To promote toote promote

the thing. Yeah. Because just listening to this little blah blah that I'm saying right now is not going to get people clicking through. So exciting. That was kind of why actually like money is a real interesting thing and I kind of often try to talk about money. Yeah. And like you you there's probably a clip in there that says I've earned no money so far which is probably enough. I swear to God I'm not on the payroll. We don't earn enough to pay my studio manager the full salary she deserves, you know, but she's so good to us. She's hanging in there. Yeah. Because she she loves the startup. It's a bit of a buzz at the moment. What is that like actually being in

the startup mode? Like people I've found that in my career um especially in this business, people really struggle coming from the the corporate world into a startup environment. As you said, no one's no big daddy's paying my bills at the moment and I've got to do it all. But like you're now a boss in charge of your actual employees and you've got rent and you've got other you've got a business partner and you've got I guess an accountant and all the things that have to hopefully you've got an accountant. You've got all the people. I've got no clue about that side of things. But that's interesting. No clue about it. Like Yeah, it's hard. What? Who is who does have the clue? Like how is

this business operating? GPT. Is it really? How do I pay my bills? No, I'm joking. Oh, do you know what? Cuz it's not You want to be the first. Oh, really? Oh, I know. Chat GPD was hand handy for certain things, but but like yeah from that like how do you become a business owner now like who's helping you with this? How's that h happen? Well, we started we had a business mentor at first which was really amazing. Die Foster. She's based in Wellington, but she comes up here. Um, and she really helped me think about a few things that I hadn't even thought about in terms of like not so much a business plan, but um, you know, just like a yeah, a plan.

A plan. Some planning stuff. Some planning stuff. I mean, it's it's boring, but um, she Yeah, she taught me about that. She gave me some confidence cuz we were really struggling with how to label things like you know people come and talk to us and we could sit there for an hour and give them all our intel and they they go out and we never see them again and we're like we just told them all these things they could never learn anywhere else. How do we how do we monetize that? Like what I just we just spent all day doing all these meetings. We made no money but we're telling everyone all the things they need to do. So she helped us get our head

around things like that and what we should call it and you know maybe even what should we charge and so she really helped with that stuff at the beginning because I think costings is the hardest thing. What do you charge people? Quoting's hard. So hard cuz I'm a generous person so I like to do I like to give give give and charge as little as possible and give people more than they paid for and and she's trying to shake me out of that. It's a hard thing. Yeah. Getting there slowly. People don't know how to quote. I think it's one of the biggest things that most small businesses fall over because of they don't know how to quote. Right. Right. And then they overpromise, underd

deliver because then they have and then they get resentment because they're like, "I'm doing so much for you. Pay me. [ __ ] all." Or they just aren't like they're quoting as freelancers would. You know, they're not quoting as business owners would. Like how do you quote for something based on someone else having to go do the work, not me doing the work? like I couldn't have grown this business if I had have just been like, "Oh yeah, I'll do it for 100 bucks an hour." Like then who's going to actually do the [ __ ] work? You know what I mean? And I think it's like it's real hard to understand that. Yeah. I think the trick is like getting to know that actually you're doing your client

a service by charging them appropriately so you can have the right people around you to deliver the work the right way. And then if you can do that, then you'll build a more sustainable business which means you're here longer term to serve your client. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a kind of like a real like nice way to say that I'm going to charge you lots of [ __ ] money. Like I like your way of thinking. But it's true. But you have to Yeah, I know. Like if we if we go out of business, we've let all our clients down. Yeah, that's true. Like they're all going Who's doing our social media now? We're [ __ ] That's true. Yeah. And that's that's what I'm coming to terms with.

I'm still in a little a bit of a space where I'm trying to embrace that. Um, and that will take just a little bit longer for me, but I'm learning that really fast. But I think that's the problem is that the thing is you do have to spend the time to learn that, you know? So, I've I've I've been doing all this free work and I'm not making any money and all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I've been doing this for six months. I need to start making money now. So, I'm starting to get that mindset that you've got I didn't I wasn't born with it. No. And when we started the business, it wasn't that immediately. I'm a spender, not a saver. Yeah.

Like we we open the studio, we've we've got a one-year lease, which was comfortable for us because we thought if we open in October, and it doesn't it doesn't look like it's going anywhere in one year, we can just shut it down and that's it. We haven't lost much. Yeah. But we come in, I spend like $150,000 doing the place up. And Dom's like, "Do we really need higher plants? Do we really need the hygiene systems in the bathroom?" And I'm like, "Yes, we do. We need all of these things. Um, so we're not going anywhere. That is hilarious cuz I spent way too much money on the decor. Yeah. And uh and things you don't see like the tech and all that. Um Yeah.

So I'm Yeah, that was that probably wasn't smart business sense, but for me it was because I think when people walk in and they go, "Wow, look at this place." Like when I came in here. Yeah. Yeah. They're already impressed by what you do without even you doing anything for them. So that to me is really important. Agreed. And I think it has really paid off. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's me. I mean, you've seen our spot in the you can imagine the money we've put into this place of someone else's building. You probably just laughed at $150,000. Oh, you know what? I did not cuz it hurts. It still hurts like And like this one we actually did really affordably. Like you'd be

surprised cuz we had the old studio that's 200 meters away. We brought a lot of stuff over with us. So, we actually ended up I think we're at 80K going into this place because we didn't need to. It was already pretty nice. That's why we went with it. Like I mean, oh yeah, got a ready made backdrop. Like it makes it nice and easy. But yeah, that's so cool. It does. I think it's important like the entrance way of the proper coffee machine and and all the like hospitality parts. I mean, that's probably my hospitality career coming out to play, but it definitely is my hospitality career, but I think it is important. So, I don't think it's wrong. But I what I wanted to

touch on, you talked about it's not a natural thing for you from the business perspective. And I think that's an interesting point because you talked about the same with interviewing as being like a unique skill that you either have it or you don't. I actually truly believe it's the same with business. I think you have it or you don't have it. But I think what you're saying is that I think the same way you think about podcasting and the service you're going to offer people is the same way you got to think about business that if it's not something you're naturally good at, you doesn't mean you can't. It doesn't mean you're an idiot. can't do the thing, but like having the help and you

having Dy who came and helped you, I think is the right thing. And a lot of people won't own up to that. They'll be like, I'm really good at radio and podcast and all interviews and all these things, so therefore I'll be really good at running a business that does that. And it's not true. And so I think that as long as you remember that, that maybe it isn't your natural skill, but that doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means you have to have the right help and support around you to do it. And maybe you do. And maybe you are naturally good at it and you're just being a little bit Well, I don't know. I would say no. You'll find out.

I'm good at organizing. That's about it. Yeah. And spending money. I'm I'm very good at spending money, too, to be fair. I spend way too much money. This light is way too expensive for what it does for us. But it does such a good job. Takes away all my wrinkles. Um, but what I did want to say is that the thing the other thing I thought was real interesting with this business decision that you guys made to create the podcast studio is one thing I see the most in my journey through this business is you have experts, engineers, lawyers, accountants, um, u brokers, media people who are very very [ __ ] sk talented and skilled in the thing that they do. Yeah. Go and start a

consultancy of some form or another. but then don't know the business side of it well enough or don't or they're trying to leverage their expertise to make a business and then none of them the ones I met in the early years none of them are around anymore. Oh god. And the reason they're not around is because they haven't got they haven't taken on the help. Yeah. And they've to taken on too much of no I'm really [ __ ] good at this thing. And it's like that doesn't matter. Like being expert at something only carries you so far. Hearing that from me, just throwing you straight under the bus here, but hearing that from me, like what do you think? Like do how far do you think

your expertise will take this business and what else does it need to to make it successful? Well, I'm under no illusion that my strengths are creative and organizing. So, um, admin, it's all over it. But, but I am of the thinking. Yeah. To outsource what you can't do yourself, you get someone else to do. And this is why Dom and I sometimes like he's like, "Oh, why are you spending money on that?" Because we have like a legal company. It's like a subscription. You pay each week legal vision. And they do as many contracts or whatever as you want. Like, okay, they help you with all that sort of stuff. So, you know, we outsource that for the legal stuff. We've got a bookkeeper. I've

got the accountant. I've got the um you know the business manager um and we have like I'm I can't run the studio like I all the gear is so complicated for me. So we have this you know this other guy has done years of TV and he costs a lot of money but he comes in and he's helping us like put the tech in the other studio. So I do outsource because I'd be stupid to have to do all that by myself. Fantastic. And also Dom is no good at admin so I can't rely on him either. Dom is definitely so creative. He's more creative than I am. He come up with an idea like that. He never has to use AI or anything for

anything. He just everything he does is in this head. He's amazing. He's a genius. It's just crazy. But me, I'm creative in a different way, but I can rely on him for all the good ideas. Cool. Yeah. Um I was looking at your pricing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was even thinking there like like your hiring rates. Uh how did you come up with those numbers? Oh, we did this ridiculous mathematical bloody chart about how much everything costs and then I didn't I didn't do it. My studio manager and this other guy did it for me. But that's basically it. But I know that we should charge more for our studio cuz we it costs us a lot more to run. Yeah, but I kind

of want it to be affordable as well as being premium. You know, it's not like Joe Blogs who's doing a podcast in their bedroom can afford to come and do it. But for a company or a business, it's it's not that much. Yeah. For what they get, you know, they got the engineers sitting there live switching between the cameras and they can zoom in and all this fancy [ __ ] and they can choose their own backgrounds now and blah blah blah. Um, and we give them all these files at the end, but and we also just we have this we give everyone this experience when they come in. We make them feel really good. Yeah. We listen to everything that they need and we'll make everything

happen that they need to happen. So, we've pulled out some stops that I never thought we'd have to pull out for a couple of clients and we've just made it happen. Not even charging them extra, but because we want this podcast recording to go so well. So, I don't know. We just That's how we came up with it. Some mathematical equation. Yeah. sort of like, but do you think we charge too much? Nah. [ __ ] no. Do you think that's too cheap? You were so affordable that I was like looking at it in preparation for this interview to go, [ __ ] should I just outsource all my podcasts to these guys cuz they'll be they'll be better at it and cheaper than I could do it. I'll

do it. I'll do it. You know, and I but you know, the reason why I thought it was quite interesting and the question asked is that you've come into the space going, "No, we are experts. Dom and I are experts at this and you are you've got the experience. You know how to produce these this level of content. M but you're charging it at almost like a market rate. Yeah. And I always think that that's an interesting thing to think about, right? Because it's like the market rate is the average. And that's what the average person who creates a podcast studio is going to charge. Yeah. And that the re the way you be above market or below market is below market. You might be

a bit shittier. You might not have all the best equipment. You might have no brand. You just literally got a wardrobe you put people in. And then the above market is like, no, you're getting so much more than just a studio. You're getting the expertise behind us and all the other things that we know go into making this. And also, you know, you're not using maybe Roadcaster Pros like we're using and instead you got proper stuff. They're very good though. No, they're fantastic for the price range. Yeah, 100%. Don't get me wrong. I would I'm a cheap bastard. I wouldn't be buying anything else. Oh, no. We were using those at first and we use them in our whisper booth. Yeah. There you go. Cuz

everyone can work at you. Exactly. That's what I like about it. Yeah. But you But you're not dealing with, you know, your cameras are static here. We our our cameras like they move and the person operates them and we set up all the shots and then show the client first you like the shot or and they go, "Oh, can you just zoom out a bit on me or whatever?" So we Yeah, we No, that's what I'm saying. I know we should charge more, but it's not necessary that you should just charge more. I just think it's an interesting conversation to have around like what's the value that you offer. You're not a podcast studio. You're so much more than that. Um because it is so

hard to start a business and get people to come and pay you money. So, we definitely started out wanting it to be affordable and that because because we we need we need customers to come and try us out. So, we just recently put up our studio prices by about $50 and all of our current clients they they pay the old price now till you know the end of July. like we we look after everyone. Um, and we don't want to like frighten people by putting the prices up. And most of the big businesses actually tell us your prices are cheap. And I know this, but because we're starting out, we didn't really know Yeah. what to charge. So, we thought in the first 6 months,

even up to a year, we would charge this amount and we can always put it up. And so I know when we open our second studio that's going to be twice the price because the experience there is way more bespoke and it's a bit more effort to you know when we get more backdrops to change the walls out and all that sort of stuff. Um so that's where we'll probably that's when we will look at the prices again maybe. Yeah. But I I I I don't want people to think that we're a ripoff or anything like that. I want people to think they get more for what they pay for. That's my whole my my whole oppos what do you call it? Oper motors operandi.

Got it. It's like um underell overd deliver. It's always been my thing 100%. Oh, look. And I don't think you should just go in and start charging outrageous thousand bucks. We had to try ourselves out. See if we're any good at this. I don't want to come in here thinking I'm going to be good at this because I'm I don't have that big an ego. But I do know that Dom and I have this pull and we have this expertise that you can't get at other podcast studios. Um, so we're just sort of hoping that people will realize that and and if that's what they want, then they will come to us and we'll put our prices up. Probably the best lesson I learned in

this and pricing was figuring out one what the real price is to cover everything, right? And making sure that that's right. And then when you talk about being affordable or accessible, um I don't I try not to well I don't discount. I just do it free. So if I really want someone to come work with us and they want to try and they're like, "Oh, I'm not really sure if you're worth the whatever thousand or whatever you're going to charge." Go, "All right, well, let's come and do it." Like give I'll prove to you that it's good the first time. And then you might go, "I don't work for free or blah blah blah." But it's like playing the long game going, "Yeah, look that

one. How much time are we really spending on this in terms of time? But what if they come in and they start paying us four times what we were going to charge because they now know the value that we're offering. Yeah. And I also do the same when I I get asked to speak at places like people be like like I like to speak as much as I can especially in schools and universities and things and helping kids and I come from Manad so like anywhere I can speak out south and they're like oh how much is like you're speaking fee and I'm like I'm not going to charge you because I'll tell you a number and you'll be like we can't afford that and

then it'll be I'll be discounting my service to you and then I'll resent you for like how little you'll pay me to do this. Just let me come do it for free and make some content out of it. Okay. And then I've got to I've got my benefit out of I'll bring Lee along and we'll film it and do all the things. So I kind of like I have the same things as you. I want to be able to offer people service at affordable price. Not everyone can afford what we do, but I'm not going to discount. I'm just going to be like I got clients who pay me what that's worth and then everyone else is free and I just got to learn how

to make sure that doesn't take up as much of my time. Yeah. Yeah. Like for instance, we like we do a lot of like online uh like webinars and whatever to like teach people stuff and it's we just literally just teach some things and it's all free and like the last one we did like 300 people on it, but I just recorded the whole thing. Yeah. You chuck it into Jack GBT and go build me an online course of scripts out of this and then I sit in front of a camera and I read the scripts off and then I got this online course and I can put up and now I can like I think 600 people have been through that course now for

free. But but why is it four of them have now subscribed to be part of our cohort group? Oh, okay. So, you're hoping so they pay money to be part of your cohort group. Okay. So, yeah. So, you're hoping these free courses get people in to do Yeah. So, what we're trying to do is we're not trying to sell knowledge. We're trying to sell the execution accountability piece. Yeah. And it's just an interesting way to think about it because you talked a little bit about I want to make sure I'm getting paid for my time. Yeah. And that's like a real employee mindset of things. I need to get paid my hourly rate, but like you're new in business and like you've actually got to

prove the value that you offer and how do you do it? Like I think it's an interesting dynamic and I think to the to to the point I made about the all the experts that I met at the start of this career and all all the way through who are no longer here anymore. They all had the same mindset. I need to be paid for every hour. I need to be paid for all my effort. um the ones who are still with us and still going around they the amount of free stuff that they do that built their brand that allows people to taste and then they now buy like one of my um close u business colleagues Drew he's a um stress coach and

he for like the last maybe the so I've been around for five and a half years we've been doing this and for the first three years of knowing him he was probably only like a couple hundredk a year and this is all public so I'm not saying anything he hasn't already shared and then he gave He just did events after events, talked on everywhere he could, just put his name out. Now, now that he's gone out in his own, um he's doing about 90k a month. Oh my god, that's awesome. Because now he's at a point where he's given so much value away over that time that people are just like, well, he's the guy think that's the guy who does it. And I think

you guys the the interesting thing with you and Dom is that you've got a lot of that already that brand because you came from radio and everyone knows that it wouldn't take you the three or four years it took him because no one knew who he was. But I think there's an interesting thing around money that like people are a bit too scared to have the proper conversation. I like what you said. You should talk to Dom because No, because I that's that that is what I do though. I do give away so much. Yeah. And then and then I'm being told like we need to make money or you need to make money and stuff like that. So, but I do understand that exactly

what you said. I understand the value in that. Yeah. Like that's why we that's why we overd deliver because we want to give people more. Yeah. Um just don't discount. Don't discount. Yeah. You're not the first person to say that. Do it free or do it exp do it value the not expensive. That's so interesting. I'm learning a lot from you today. Oh, thanks. Oh, we should have this conversation back before October. Don't worry, you're early in the you're early in the journey, I think, is important. What I like this like we're finding like, you know, we could there's not many people um in this industry of podcasting that so we need to find like friends we can talk to and like common mentors and

things like that. But I find like some of the couple of podcast studios are quite competitive and and I'm just like, "Oh, okay. I thought we were going to be friends, but obviously not. So, um, that's the industry in general. That's New Zealand industry in general. People don't like to share. They always But it's like you're not I'm not we're not poaching each other's clients. There's enough room for all of us because there's a lot of podcasters out there. But anyh who, I'm obviously naive. I I don't think you are. I think actually, so it's been our strength. And if you watch or consume or anyone who watches consume any of the content I do. I'm like the biggest overshare of all time. And I

tell everyone everything. I tell the money. I tell the hards, the the highs, the lows and everything. And people uh they find it a little bit jarring at some points. But the ones who don't and who agree with me and come in and want to share. Yeah. They're also all the ones that are succeeding because the ones that are like being real protectionists um they actually end up losing long term because like no one want like no one wants to do stuff with people like that. Long term, you know, and like we've been able to win a lot of big contracts off of some of these agencies and things of people who are like a lot dirty tactics. Oh god, I hate that. Yeah. And

like we give away everything. Like anyone could walk in here like my I I've given competitors playbooks of like this is how you do it, bro. You know, and like for me it's like what instead of trying to get a bigger slice of this pie, let's just all grow a bigger pie. Yeah. You know, like what if every business just had a podcast then both of us would make so much more money. Exactly. Rather than like us trying to like steal each other's podcasts off each other. I'm not into that cuz I I have morals. Yeah. So like if someone wants to come to me and do their podcast with me, great. But I'm not going out poaching other people's podcasters. It's not the point.

No, that's um we're an hour in. Oh my god. Yeah. I'm sorry. Did you say anything in Did I say anything interesting yet? Uh I don't know. We'll have to go and fe go look through the transcript to make sure. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. It was great. I want to for me personally, I think it was really good. Like I got a lot out of it actually. And I think I got a lot of affirmation for people who listen that I know listen who would like to hear it come from someone else other than me because you say a lot of the same things I'd say about it that like how hard interviewing is, how long things take, how hard business actually is at

the beginning giving away stuff. So there's a lot of key lessons I think and uh I'm really keen to watch and follow the journey because I think it's interesting and watching you and Dom do your thing. It's cool. Dom was here the other day. He popped in for coffee. What was he up to? He came in randomly coffee with Connor who's one of the guys in our team and Connor was like, "Oh yeah, I didn't even know who he was." And I was like, "Fuck, he's some [ __ ] army. Everyone [ __ ] knows who he is." What was cuz I wasn't here last week. I was in Vanuato. Yeah. He came in. They just had a coffee. Who in Did Connor invite him in? Well, what did

they talk about? Podcast, I guess. I was just like, he hasn't even told me this. They just had a coffee and then as he walked out, we had this other guy coming in. He's like, "Oh my god, it's Dom [ __ ] Harvey." And all the like I got a bunch of GZ's in the team. And so they were like, "Who's Dom Harvey?" I'm like, "You got Oh, no. I know. We're getting old now." And I was like, and but but they've got a even split. The rest of them, like, you know, the older guys on the team were like, "What do you mean, who the [ __ ] is Dom Harvey, you pricks?" Anyway, so anyway, we entertained your childhood. Exactly. Oh my god. We're like, we're nostalgic

for people in their Yeah. Well, mainly 30s and 40s, right? And then the young ones are coming through now and they have no idea who we are. So we just seem older than has been. Official has been. That's me. That's it. Um you hit it here first. You can make that your highlight reel. No, thank you so much for coming. I really do appreciate it. Oh, no worries. Honestly, if you want to just catch up and Yeah, we should chat and share. We should just book in some time for a coffee anyway. Oh, yeah. I'm keen to do that. Like it'd be quite cool. We can actually ask each other proper business. Proper business questions.