Lewis Clareburt: The Olympian Breaking Every Rule to Build a Brand.

I used to see photos of Olympians eating McDonald's. Yeah, you got these legal teams on the other end going, "You're not allowed to do that cuz we said this contract." I filmed a video of me monoing in the Olympic pool. If any of my staff are hearing is that I f like breaking all the rules is the best thing. The Olympic Federation is making billions of dollars. What happens if you didn't delete it? I don't know. I didn't find out. What do Olympians do after they retire from sport? That's the question that we proposed today to Lewis. Um, one of New Zealand's top performing athletes. He won gold at Commonwealth Games. He's won the World Champs. He's been to the last two Olympics. And honestly,

like he's a [ __ ] cool kid. Like listening to him and his mindset on money and how he's growing a brand to supply him with enough like revenue, I suppose, to have the lifestyle he wants and also build his career into the future. It's a really interesting chat. if one you're an athlete trying to build a career after your sport or you're just somebody who needs to kick up the ass to build their personal brand. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. N thank you. Um I know we just said off camera that it's been a little while since we got into this. I canceled on you, you canled on me. We finally got it here. Um and I'm really looking

forward to this because as I said um we've never had a sports person like yourself on the podcast. Um, and I think it's like quite interesting dynamic around uh how people build audiences. And um I'm really interested to see why you did because not a lot of New Zealand sports people even get into social media very much. And when you see them like when you see them do it, you know there's someone else doing it for them and it's not really there. But I don't think that's fully you and I. I think you've done most of it yourself. Is that right? Yeah. Everything myself. I know it because um it's it's so I don't know if authentic is the right word. It is obviously authentic,

but it's just real. Like, it's just it's just a person going through their life, which I love. So, I'm going to I'd like to start off with um not really so much about the swimming cuz if people don't know that you're a swimmer, then they missed the intro that I've already done that I haven't yet you haven't seen. But, um I don't I'm not really that interested into it. What I'm really interested into is like the mindset of why you thought like why you got into it, like why did you start posting and all that sort of stuff. and the from my knowledge of you which let's be fair like it's not a I don't know everything about you that's why I got you on

the podcast but the was it um the Tokyo Olympics probably where well or from my point of view where I could see it start y is there something before that when it started or is that like kind of where things started to take off a little bit like where for you did this like moment of social media and gain a little bit of notoriety on it where did that start for you yeah it was sort of weird because there's a few reasons The first one was like I've always wanted to go to the Olympics. Yeah. Since I was a kid, like I dreamed of just like going to Olympics. Um through this like I guess the first stages of social media. I used to see

photos of Olympians eating McDonald's and I was like damn that is so sick. Like I would love to go to Olympics and just get a nice photo of me eating McDonald's. Um, but then it sort of developed where I was like actually what was it actually like for these guys going to Olympics eating McDonald's and you never saw videos like videos weren't really a thing back then. Um, so when I went to Olympics I was like right like I'm going to show everyone absolutely everything that I see because that's what I wanted to see when I was a kid. Um, so I was just showing I guess this audience what I really wanted to see as a kid and I was sort of like before

like I was early on the scene that this is for Tik Tok. Like Tik Tok is had only just sort of really come around in 2021 I guess. Um, and I was actually breaking every rule in the book. So when you go to Olympics, there's all these commercial rules and like you can't be a broadcaster or anything like that. So, a lot of my videos were actually flagged for like commercial whatever. So, I I had to delete a lot of them or just not post um as many as I I would have liked. So, for example, I was I claimed to be the first person to manu at the Olympics and I really I filmed a video of me monuing at in the Olympic pool

and um got a message got to delete this. And so, I was like, how can I get around this? Anyway, I went through the video and I was like, "Screenshot, drag forward a little bit. Screenshot." So, when I posted the video, it was like it was sort of like a time lapse of like me moneying in the in the pool. That's so good. Um, and so I managed to get away get away with it like that because you could have photos, not video. Is that really it? Yeah. So, I could you could have still photos of anything, but videos weren't allowed. Um, that is so good. That is such a focus. All the video is a bunch of photos. Yeah. And then when I was

videoing, you could video like in the village or like non-competition venues. So, I guess a lot of my videos were just in the room. I think my first video that went viral was me videoing one of my American Kiwi friends that was like trying to figure out her bed cuz the beds were like the biggest news of the the Olympics. Um, so that was like my first reason of doing social media. Um, and the second one sort of warped throughout the years of like actually if I want to be able to be an athlete full time, I can't just rely on the money I get from um, you know, my I guess your it's called like your excellence grant from from swimming. So, whatever money

that is, it's not going to fill my bucket to be able to actually do this job fully. Um, so I needed another avenue to actually make money, get my name out there. Um, so I'm a big guy. I'm a yes man. So, I say yes to every media opportunity I can just because I know that that's another opportunity that I'm going to get people's eyes on me. Um, and so that was sort of how my my two reasons why I actually went on social media and started sharing my life. Yeah, I love it. I love um that so good. So much to unpack there. It cracks me up about the the rules around it. And like I just want to like for people who are

listening to get some clarification on that like is that around the Olympics not being like this professional environment? Is that what it's for? Like why why can't you do the video stuff? Like why was that banned? I think because companies and broadcasters pay so much to get the rights for to like I guess showcase the Olympics in their country. Um and for example Sky Sport like they're the ones that pay all the money for New Zealand. Um and they don't want me cutting their lunch. Got it. And what happens if you didn't delete it? I don't know. I didn't find out. Because that's an interesting conversation, right? Like is it that like does does Sky pay you or does Sky New Zealand sport that pays

you? So yeah, I guess well they pay New Zealand Olympic Committee for the rights, I'm guessing. Got it. I'm not 100% sure on the commercial sort of side of things, but yeah, they pay NZ, the New Zealand Olympic Committee, and then we're there on behalf of the Olympic Committee. They don't, the Olympic Committee don't pay us. You don't get any money for going to Olympics, but um they I guess pay for you to get over there, pay for you, get over there, pay for your costs and stuff. Yeah. Interesting. It's an interesting thing, e, because it's like um for me that sort of stuff, you doing that could have been a massive viral moment for Sky Sport themselves. They could have just lent into it

with you. And I always find that like it's you got these legal teams on the other end going you're not allowed to do that because we said this contract. But actually like the first person to Manu in Olympic pool is such a funny Kiwi moment. This guy's thought could have blown that up. Like did you actually end up like outside of your socials? Was there anything in media that played into that? Did you see was there much that played out in the media around you doing that from a positive perspective? Yep for sure. Manu like the Manu thing was like I didn't see that. That's cool. Yeah. like the media definitely grabbed on hold of that. Um, and the bed thing like I think just

generally throughout that Olympic period like I came out as the guy that manu in the Olympic pool and also like the official bed tester somehow. So I think definitely um they played on you know that whole thing. Um, but I couldn't like it wasn't to the full extent. And I'm pretty sure like now coming into last year Paris Olympics, um, you know, they had their own social media people that were doing that sort of stuff as well. So I sort of like to think I was a bit ahead of the game. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. That Tokyo Olympics was such an interesting Olympics for like um, short form video at least like blowing up and all the all of you who were there who

did it um, and grew massive brands. And then yeah, the Paris one was like kind of like the first proper social media Olympics or video one anyway, isn't it? Yeah. Um Okay. So, so that's where it started. Um what has that then led to? Like so if you're saying that I'm doing this thing because it helps me build uh a way of earning money outside of just my excellence grants and whatnot. Like how has that eventuated? Like has that worked? Has it happened? What's been some of the learnings that you've got out of that? Yeah, I guess the biggest thing that I learned is this is freaking hard. Like to do social media and to do it consistently is super hard to I guess for

me like coming up with ideas and being consistent on a platform is like really tough. Um but it has opened so many doors like I um have got I think I sort of want to say like maybe half of my sponsorships um have come from maybe that and just people seeing me on on TV um or social media or whatever. Um and then it also has had some negative effects I guess like there is a stigma around athletes and doing social media and like this like if you're doing social media then you're not focusing on actually doing your sport or swimming fast. So there is that side of thing. Um and I've probably lost I think I've potentially lost maybe one major sponsor really because

of social media. Um interesting. I'm pretty open about you know speaking my mind. I think when I was um I used to live in Wellington, one of my biggest struggles was actually being able to film in the pool. So, I was having to go through like loopholes of councils and stuff to actually be able to film. And I got an email one day and it was like, Louis, you're not allowed to film in our pool. Yeah. And for that week, every single day, I posted a video cuz I was like, I don't give a crap. Like, [ __ ] I love this so much. You like if any of my staff are hearing this, they're like, "Fuck." Like I love like breaking all the rules is the

best thing. Okay. So why why would you do that? Like cuz like could they just stop you from swimming in their pool and then where are you going to swim? Like yeah I guess like I'm I'm in the like I'm in not swimming in a private pool like it's a public pool so I guess they they do have a bit of control. Um but I was sort of biting back at these at these rules. Like I've always been biting back at video rules and like obviously I went to Olympics and that was a rule you couldn't film. So, I was always trying to push the the pedal to to try, you know, move the move move everything the way I wanted to move. Um, and

I was I could like I was quite aggressive about it. Um, what happened? Well, I ended up leaving Wellington. I got on the plane. Yeah. So, I got on the plane. Yeah. Um that's so but also like I I think I I was able to to to you know move the rule book and um you know we went into Paris and we were allowed to film the Olympics so there were so many people that were doing that and you know I'm not sure if you saw the muffin man but like what he was able to do throughout that two like we were only there for two weeks. We were racing for a week for two weeks. So, um, like I I guess, yeah, I was

I was able to move the the rule book. That's so good. That's so good. I love that. Just like, um, I I run into that a lot. I've always run into that thing a lot where like a rules put in place for no real reason or there might have been a reason it before and there might have been like say like in a pool. I guess understanding that there might be like some people who are in compromising positions and you know, you often in bikinis or in short like you know, underwear or whatever. I get it. But like there are ways to solve for that. You can't just put a blanket. Like the rule stupid. The rule was designed stupid in the first place. And

I hate that sort of thing. It's just like what was the rule intended to do? Well, it's intended to keep people safe online. Okay. Well, cool. Well, I'll keep them safe online. I'll make sure that it's just me or whatever, right? And then so I'm all for that for like how do you break how do you tell people that your rules are stupid and like why are we actually here? Like what's the intent behind them? Yeah, I love it. [ __ ] that. You just went up so many notches in my book for that story. That's so good. I [ __ ] love this. So I have a job next week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Get him a camera. Put some headphones on him. Let's get him going.

Um Okay. So, so that's actually quite interesting. So, um you're able to then use that brand to bring on some sponsors. In your words, potentially about half of them potentially have with you because of the social media as well. Um and you potentially lost one because of the social media. So, it's kind of a bit of a trade-off between it. Um, was that with that social media? Like for the for the people listening, what where is your numbers at sitting now from a follow account across the different socials roughly? So I think I'm at like 20,000 on Instagram. Yeah. I think 150,000 on Tik Tok. Yeah. Um, those are probably my main ones. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, so you got about 170. So Tik

Tok's been the biggest one. So it's not huge numbers in terms of the scale of what some people can do, but it's it's still big. It's still like bigger than the average of New Zealand, let's put it that way. Um, but you've been able to build pretty successful sponsorship. When you say that, like you don't have to give me absolute dollar figures, but like when you say that it's been able to um build that like from a career perspective and like living is there is that enough money like to live on or like where does that sort of sit in the range of living like your living expenses and things? Does it cover it all? Yeah. So I essentially work on a basis of my

money that I get from my swimming pays for my living expenses and then everything else I get is a bonus that I tuck away and got it throw it investments or whatever that is. Um my living expenses since I've moved to Oakland have definitely and like I'm going to say doubled. Yeah. So, like it definitely has been like harder, but like I wouldn't be able to live like a in my I guess my idea of fulfilled life if I didn't have this other side of things or I didn't have this my personal brand. Yeah. Yeah. And so the the the swimming is the excellence grant that's paying for that. Yeah. And that's the is that the only money you get for swimming is the excellence

grant. And is that paid by the government? Who's that paid by? So the government pays that and that's the only money you get for swimming. Nothing else. Uh you do get like prize money. Okay. So depending on how good you are. So for example, last year I won the world championships at the start of the year. So I think I got like $20,000. Okay, that's cool. So it can be really lucrative or it can be reasonably lucrative if you are winning. Of course. Of course. I'm not I'm not usually winning, but but you have won some, right? It's not like you haven't. So that's quite cool. What about like things like um like the Commonwealth Games like getting golds and stuff? Like does that do

anything? Nothing. That's so interesting. I don't think people realize that. Yeah. That like the world champs is paying you 20,000 US. The Commonwealth Games are paying you zero. What about the Olympics? Is this the same? Zero. Yeah. I think athletics at the Olympics just came out if you won the Olympic gold. This is internationally. So the like international federation world athletics if they won the the gold medal at the Olympics for athletics they got 50,000 US. So I think we will see like throughout the next few Olympic cycles like sports actually paying their athletes that are winning medals. So that'll be cool. That is an interesting conversation to have too. Like I was watching um do you watch Johnny Harris on YouTube? Do you know

who he is? Yes. The Vox thing. And he did he did the thing on Oh, was it Johnny Harris? Yeah. Who who actually is the Olympics? Yeah. Have you seen that video of people doing that? Oh, probably. It's this interesting video of like like who are the Olympics? Like who owns it? Like where is this thing? And he like went down this rabbit hole and he's like, "Oh yeah, there's like these 12 men in Geneva who like have all the purse strings and pull everything and like who are they? They're no one. Like it's not it's not owned by governments. It's not owned by anything. There's this federation and there's like these 12 men sitting in Geneva who like hold all the power yet don't

pay any of the athletes to pull on this like multi-billion dollar event every four years. They put cities into debt to do it. And it was like a real interesting thing. I don't that's not me saying the Olympics is wrong. That's me saying that it probably is at a stage where reform has to happen because the athletes who make the thing possible are probably not being compensated. But I think that's an interesting conversation. Do what do you what's your opinion as an Olympic athlete on that narrative? Because this is coming from one a journalist and me a guy who owns a social media agency saying it's not fair, but like as an Olympic athlete, how do you feel about the same thing? Do you think

it's fair or do you think it's just part and parcel of being an athlete in these sports? I think in today's sort of era of sport, like I pretty sure the Olympic Federation is making yeah billions of dollars. So I think they should like athletes should be um you know given a chance to make some money. Um I know that like a lot of the Olympics the reason the Olympics is the Olympics is because it's an amateur sport. Um governments pump millions into sport every year. Like I think New Zealand government maybe pumps in $40 million a year for just us athletes. Um which is quite a lot of money when you think about it. Um I think there's 250 300 athletes that go to

Olympics. So spread across that and all the staff that are behind that. Um but I I think the Olympic federation will eventually down the track be forced to you know pay pay. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. I think they have to. I think there's too much uh eyes on it now to not do it and allow I mean especially when you think that the sports are one like when you watch I think it was a what was it the 2012 Olympics I was in London at the time when that happened and watching London like or London the UK Great Britain like clean up at that Olympics because of how much money they just chucked into it in the years pre previous to that thing

prior to that I should say and how money buys golds like and how how like prevalent that is actually like money actually does just buy a gold medal if you wanted to because you can put the best um well people don't have to focus on other things right they can just go and swim all day long and do that sort of stuff and like how it like perpetuates the better people because they can continue to hone their craft and have the best trainers and the best nutritionists and whatnot and so I I think so too I think it's like better for the sport like rather than a few countries who have got all the best people because got the most money if everyone can make

a living out of it um there's something more there it it will that the problem I think is that you'll only start with the winners getting money which just adds fuel to the fire but I think that there probably has to be some way of like how do this um this next like the upandcomers like how do they get people who have like natural talent to get to a place but then just need money to take to the next level is probably like the real especially for New Zealand uh uh sports people right because like um you're saying that your excellence grant is enough to just live on. But like I mean I've been I've been watching a few interviews with like uh with a

different a few different athletes uh uh like Usain Bolt and a bunch of other guys who have like had stuff and like the money that have been getting pumped into these guys. I mean it's just like phenomenal. They're just talking about millions of dollars that are just getting pumped into for things. It's kind of interesting dynamic. Anyway, I'm on attention. Okay, let me just reset the frame. So you've got about 170,000 followers. You you you're getting enough of excellence grant to maintain your life, but then you've got all this other money that sits on top that allows you to like have a life like worth living probably like sorry just surviving this everywhere. Um if that excellence grant was to go away, could you survive

on the money coming through social media or is it like not quite there? It's really just a top up. I think I personally would be [ __ ] myself. Yeah. So, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. I like every month I get paid for this sports gig. Um but it's not every month that I'll get money through I guess the the sponsors social stuff. Um so I think I potentially could make it work. Um yeah, but it would be very hard. Yeah. What what what is the goal then? Because like how old are you now? 25. And how long does this career last? Hopefully at least another three years. Another three years. But is that really it or do you do you can it last

longer than that or is that kind of all you want to give it? We're not sure yet. Yeah. Not sure yet. I mean I could I like athletes are retiring later and so like I could get to LA Olympics in 2028 and decide damn I actually want to keep going. Um because I personally I love the lifestyle. Um, I love being able to choose my own time. Um, so so then what happens then if you do, let's just pretend. Not, this is no exclusive. Yours isn't quitting after LA. Um, but let's say you get to LA, you finished. It's done. You're like, you know what? I'm cool. This has been an awesome career so far. What do you do? Um, that's what I'm trying to

figure out right now. Yeah. So, I've I've given myself this next sort of three years to actually decide what I want to do after sport. Yeah. Um, one of my major sponsors, um, and leading up to Paris was a wealth management firm. Yeah. And I would sometimes go in and sort of do a few hours here and there and like just see what it was like. Um, so that sort of opened my world to this like asset management, investing world that I was like, well, maybe I could be like a financial adviser or um, I mean, I obviously love the social media space, so maybe I could somehow do something with that. Um, so I have all these little ideas that are like pinging around

every single day. Um, but yeah, like I've given myself the next 3 years to figure that out. Try to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and when you say figure it out, there's an like I'm going to press on you a little bit here because I just think it's kind of interesting. When you say figure it out, what does that process look like for you? Like how do you figure that out? It's a good question. Yeah. I um I think for me like I really want to put my foot in the door to some of these places. So actually test it out and see what it was see what it's like. Um I used to see all these financial advisers and their lifestyle and I

thought it was pretty cool. So like that was that's one thing where I was like actually I could do that. Um my girlfriend doesn't want me to be a financial adviser but um yeah like I I'm not sure yet. So like I I'm I'm still trying to figure that out. So just like exposure is what you're essentially saying. Just expose yourself to these worlds to see um kind of like date a little bit before you get married in the profession, right? Like just see where it is. Is that what you kind of saying? Yeah, I think so. Um what about like like one thing you haven't said there is like oh yeah, I'd like to continue to help push forward the sport of swimming in

New Zealand. Nothing there. Like there's nothing around like and not the answer doesn't have to be absolute right now, but like um what about the sport? like you kind of just like walk away at some point cuz you're no longer the athlete. Like traditionally a lot of swimmers do just walk away. Um so interesting, isn't it? They take everything they can from the sport. Um and a lot of the time the sport doesn't actually give a lot back to you. So when athlete or swimmers in particular walk away, they completely walk off and never see it again. Um I think I would really love to stay in the athlete space. Um I think a lot of athletes have no idea how to manage their money.

Yeah. So, like that could be an option for me to to sort of mix those two careers together. Um, but yeah, like I would love to be able to stay in the athlete space, but in what degree, I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I think um I I've spoken to a lot of people in the past around like athlete management and athlete like financial literacy and and whatnot and how um it is something that is very prevalent that people don't have very good like financial literacy when it comes to but I think it's not just athletes just people in general don't and then but then athletes are quite young getting a bunch of money like you know getting a $20,000 US check like just

handed to you when you're young is like it's like a dream. That's so much money for one lump sum. Most people would never know how to do that. Like if I was 22 or whatever and or 24 or something and I got given $20,000, I would have pissed it all off the wall. Like 100% would have blown it all. There's no way I would have known what to do with it properly when you got that check. Like how was that for you? Cuz that's a pretty big lump sum to be given. Is that how it's given to you? Just like here's a check. Yeah. It probably pops into your bank account like three months, four months later. Yeah. Um, and the first thing the first

thing is like hell yeah. Like that's a pretty nice number. You know how you can set up like notifications on your phone like when something big comes through? Like it popped through and I was just like screenshot screenshot. I love that. But um yeah, like I think for me like I um like I I have an accountant so the first thing that he made me do was pay the tax man. So it was unfortunate. Um, but yeah, like it it is really cool and I think it helps motivate you to to keep going. Yeah, that's interesting paying the tax man because that's not saying all sports people do straight away. Um, and there's been plenty of cases of people going, "Oh, you owe 200 grand

to the tax man because you haven't paid anything from your bloody winnings." Um, that's interesting that you said that you've got an accountant because I don't know if that's like a normal thing for people because you're essentially a freelancer is essentially what you are. It just so happens that the thing that you freelance for is swimming in, you know, professional sport. Well, at least at elite level sport. Um, where was that decision made from to get an accountant? I think it was pretty early on. I think when you're with in the high performance system, you have what's called an athlete life advisor. Okay. So, I have um this lady who essentially told me like, okay, I think this is what you should do. Like this

is this is how we're going to plan your life. Yeah. So, we do have people along the steps like in the step of the way that's like telling us. Tell me a little bit about that. Like what are some of the other things that they sort of like help you with and like sort of work That's pretty cool. I didn't know that that was a thing. Yeah. Like we have it's pretty awesome. We have access to a lot of really cool people. Um so my athlete life advisor um they essentially help you plan your life. So they're helping me with my future career. um and they help me you know study at university, what to choose um with, you know, ideas and actually how to

manage my life on a day-to-day basis as well. So, for example, I could never do full-time university. Like, I just could not fit in the hours. I sleep, you know, 99% of the day. So, um if I'm not training, I'm usually sleeping. So, um yeah, like they help. That's the life. Swim and sleep. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. Um it's pretty cool. But yeah, so they helped me plan my like how I was going to do my university loading. So I only do part time. So like I started university in 2018. I still haven't finished. Yeah. So um they Yeah. They just help you with your day-to-day life and it's really cool. Yeah. That's awesome. And that's just like sort of paid for by New Zealand

sport. Is that what it's done? Is that Yeah. Yeah. So you get access to essentially like these are all people I have access to. I've got a psychologist, athlete life adviser. I have um like a strength and conditioning coach. Yeah. My swim coach. Yeah. Um and then we have I guess nutrition as well. So there's like heaps of people that you can That's so cool. That's actually fantastic. And I I knew that there was lots of support around the New Zealand like well just any athletes and people in general. But the Life Advisor one's kind of interesting. I didn't know that was a thing that you guys had which is um all those services in themselves would cost stupid money for the regular person to

have. So actually like on top of your excellence grind, you've also like if you think about you have to pay for those as an elite athlete pretty much like you'd need you I mean you couldn't you'd need a strength and condition coach. So yeah. So that's quite a um that's an awesome perk that you get. Okay. Um all right. So, I'm going to go back to life after sport for a bit. And I know that's you're nowhere near that point now, but I think it's a real interesting conversation because um all the sports people I have talked to in the past, not necessarily on a podcast obviously this is the first time, but like I met in person, we got to know them and I

know a bunch of like ex all blacks and different things or ex um warriors and whatnot. And they they all have the same concern like all of them are like [ __ ] what I do after what I do after this life of sport and what I do and like some of them have made really good money but that like that really good money is not like life-changing money that you could retire on. It's still like this will run out one day. Um and they're all still trying to figure it out even like I've met guys who are probably like late 40s still going yeah I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to do after sport. Like it's like, bro, you haven't played for 15

years. What do you mean trying to do that? Life off the sport? And I've met a couple of them who have like created businesses, multiple businesses since still trying to figure it out. Um I guess like what where I'm going with that line of questioning is with you exposing yourself to all these other things, like how far and wide do you spread it? like it seems like you're pretty dialed in on this financial space or potentially in the social media space as like maybe a maybe a side thing. Do you think that you will expose yourself to any other things or do you think it's more better for you to go deep into one or two? My door is like so wide open. Yeah, I

like that. Like I like I sort of like the idea of those two and mixing them. Um I don't see a lot of financial people I know you can't legally give advice um but I you don't see a lot of those two mixing together. Yeah. Um but yeah it is [ __ ] scary. Yeah. Like we essentially have zero hours of work experience behind us. You know we have life experience that I think is invaluable. Um but yeah like we have no hours behind us. we could essentially go into a graduate role and be the same as you know the other graduates that are fresh 18 out of school sort of thing. Um so like it is scary and like yeah what do you what do you

think you know it is an interesting especially for Olympians or like you know like track track or swimming or that sort of those sorts of athletes in New Zealand where it's not a week in week out watch you don't buy into a team like we watch you once every four years and let's be honest even the Commonwealth Games in New Zealand doesn't get the same attention that the Olympics does and things like that none of us watch world champs like no No one, no regular folk watches on TV. No, you just do not do it. We don't even know it's on, right? Yeah. Um, and so it's even harder for people like yourself as opposed to ex all blacks or football like rugby stars or

league stars or um, so in my mind I think that the best thing to do when it comes to like trying to build a career out of anything even if you are like even if you're in a corporate job or you're a student or you know you just decide to take six years off and travel the world and do things like that. I think building a brand regardless is the right move. And the reason for it isn't because your brand can necessarily generate you revenue. It's because it opens doors. And I think that's the biggest thing. The number of athletes, Olympic athletes from New Zealand who nobody knows now because they're not competing anymore is like thousands, right? No one knows them because they didn't

build a brand at all. No one really knew them. They were like typical Kiwis like keep the head down, do the thing, win some medals, maybe fine. Um or maybe don't win any medals, spend 12 years of their life like maybe always coming fourth and then they're just gone. But actually like to build a big brand, you don't have to be the best. Like you don't have to win all the golds. You don't have to win all the things. You can just build a big brand by having a personality or a story that people buy into. So I think for you my advice would be don't rest on your laurels with your brand. How do you take that even further? How do you show more

things like you talked about the Olympics uh showing the things that you wanted to see when you were a kid and what it is. And I think that there's stuff you do every day that you probably don't even realize people want to see. And it's those questions I'd be asking myself. What are the things that I do every day that no one realize everyone wants to know but they don't realize I don't realize they want to know it? And it's this like idea that um Janie and our team puts it a really good way if she says it's like other people's normals other people's normals are fascinating to us because it's just like the thing you do every day and we're like what the [ __ ]

He sleeps all day. He's like in bed 89. But I was like that's fascinating actually you telling me that like actually you have caugh like recovery is probably one of the biggest parts of your day cuz we all know like that's most of the prevailing science now is that actually the workout isn't the thing. It's the recovery from the workout is more important. I mean it's why I bought this cuz I was really terrible at recovery. Yeah. Exactly. It's why I was so bad at recovery. I was just like burning myself out and training. I was like I got to train harder. ah run more KS or something and it's like no you just need to sleep you [ __ ] like you're you're yeah so those

sorts of things about explaining those sorts of normals um which you do to a certain extent but I think like doubling down on that and doing a more allows you to build a brand that then opens doors if you got into let's say you did get into the financial advisor space as a financial adviser you don't sell financial literacy or financial knowledge or anything you just sell trust that's all you sell and if your name and brand is so big and authentic and well the way you have built your brand to start with actually cuz your brand is quite authentic and real. There's a lot of trust behind you because people feel like you're giving them like you're peeling back the layers to show them

stuff that they haven't seen before. If you go out and work to be a financial adviser, let's say that was the path you wanted to take, you'd crush it straight away because everyone be like, "Oh yeah, of course I trust this guy. I've been watching his journey the whole way through, blah, blah, blah. We should go talk to him." You know, so my advice would be how do I how do you continue to build that? You will get all these media opportunities and sponsorships that come through it because people like I want to attach to his brand because I can make some money off of him. Cool. Fine. Take the money as you can. You're young. Take everything. Um and uh but my advice would

be that you won't make in New Zealand if you stay here. You'll never make enough money doing that. Like how do I put this? You'll never make as much money as you could only doing that. If you can make 300 grand a year doing that, you could probably make $3 million a year doing something else with that brand, which is yours. The problem is like, do you have the chops to go off and do that other thing? And and it sounds like you do because like especially if you're talking about money and financial advice, like it takes a certain type of mindset to be able to understand that world. So anyway, with all that waffle and political answer I just gave you, [ __ ] just keep

building your brand. just build as big as [ __ ] possible. Like how do you go like you know like it's like Elena or whatever her name is, right? Like how do you get to that level? Yeah, it's she she does it like really like a really good job. Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting though how you you say building brand and I agree like building brand is like your biggest asset especially for me as an athlete like I it's Yeah. It's um it's something that people do for a period of time, but they very rarely consistently always do it to the same level. And they use moments to um grow like the Olympics or World Champs or whatever. And those are cool. That's fine. I understand why

they'll use those moments to do it. But what they forget to do is that actually like my normal is interesting to people and I could do just as much content and just as many viral moments in my daily life to build that the same level. So if you think about like the peaks where your brands, you know, you've got a bunch of followers. You could do that every day if you just found the thing that people find as your normal. Yeah. Um the problem is that you don't think it's that exciting because they're not at Tokyo anymore, you know, or whatever it might be, you know. So, it's like how do I how do I find those moments again in my daily life that actually

are really super interesting. The other thing is that you'll find is that they're either we call it like this like circle of like relatable and absurd. The absurd stuff is your everyday normal that everyone else finds fascinating. It's kind of absurd that you do that. Like like it's probably not the right thing, but let's say the sleeping thing. Just going to hop on for that a bit. We would all love to sleep a lot more. Like everyone needs more sleep. And someone who sleeps most of the day, just the way you said it was kind of funny. Like if I'm not swimming, I'm sleeping. It's kind of crack up. That's kind of absurd, right? That's quite absurd for people. Yeah. Why it's so good is

because it's also very relatable. We would all want to sleep more. And so you find those things where like it's either absurd or it's relatable or ideally it's a bit of both. There's a relatability piece to the absurdity. Like that's so absurdly, but I [ __ ] I'm so jealous of you. And that would just like it'd be so funny. This would be I mean I don't know if you've already done this but like um like a day in a day in my life and it's just like you know wake up do this thing and it's sleep and then it's just like this like one minute bit of like it's like what touch are you sleeping and like and I mean it probably be a terrible video

but you get what I'm trying to say right like yeah it's like showcasing this normal that you have that everyone's like [ __ ] is that what it's like and and what's really good about that sort of idea is that you've got two sorts of responses you got the people [ __ ] jealous or you [ __ ] lazy prick, get up and do something. You know, like you've got you got the David Gogggins fans who are like, "Run more. Like, break a leg and run on it." You know, like you got those guys and you got other people like, "Man, I wish I could just go home right now and sleep kind of." So, I think there's something there funny. But yeah, I mean, that's my advice. Like, too many

people are trying to find the end answer. They're trying to find the thing that finishes like I want to find out the thing I do after sport. They're trying to find that. And the truth of the matter is is that if you retire around 30 or late 20s or early 30s, you've literally got like 40 years worth of career left. Probably 30 to 40 years of career left. As if you're only going to do one thing. Like so you're never going to find the one thing you do after sport. But actually the thing that will help you throughout the whole process is I've got a really good trustworthy brand. So anything I do is worthwhile. So yeah. Anyway, that's my advice. Yeah. I hope that

helps. No, that's awesome. Yeah, I love that. And I think I remember you actually listening to something you were saying. Um you obviously worked in the hotel space and you came back to New Zealand and you had already saved enough money to live the rest of your life and you were like [ __ ] it like let's just try to do something cool cuz I know eventually I'll be able to live. So like I think that that's one of the things that I sort of have to take into like for for my own life is like I'm going to finish sport. I mean I probably won't have enough money to live the rest of my life. Um, but like I need to just go out there and

take a risk and hopefully I'll have that brand to to follow me so that eventually like I could walk into any door, not just, you know, that those two doors that I sort of had those ideas of. Yeah. You know, just to clear the air there if anyone wants to ask, I didn't have enough money to live the rest of my life. And but what I did have is I had enough money to retire on. And so I had I had enough money put into my superanuation that when I hit 67 or whatever, when I could pull it out, it would have compounded enough to retire on. The reason why that was important is that I am um humble enough to go stack shelves at

countdown for the rest of my life just to make sure I can put a roof over my head in my wife's head, right? I'm okay to do that. If that's what I had to do to get it done, fine. knowing that by the time I'm 67 and I can get out, pull out my super out of Australia, I'd be living comfortably, right? So, at the end of the day, my worst case scenario was good, right? Like, and so I was taken care of. Me and my wife were taken care of at retirement. So, I did, but the money from 32 to 67 I didn't have, but I was okay to do whatever it took to get there. What that meant is that the things I

do now, I can completely fail as long as I can put food on the table and a roof over my head. Um, I can do anything. I can blow it all up, which allows you to take much bigger risks for things because you're not I'm not looking for this business to retire me. I've already got my retirement fund. I'm good. And I did that through luckily maybe most of my career in Australia who paid you really good super and that really set me up. I can't take credit for that. The Australian government's fantastic superanuation policies set me up for life. That 11%. Yeah, exactly. And even for me, it was only nine and a half for most of my career there, right? Because I hadn't

quite got it up to the 11 and where it's eventually going to end. But still amazing, right? On top of my salary. And then I salary sacrificed a bunch because I I read the barefoot investor and then I was like, "Oh, I need to salary sacrifice some more into the stuff." But what that did allow me to do is then to go and become very risky. like I could take big bets on stuff and that's what we did with this business and we've just consistently taken bigger bets which has allowed us to grow it to the speed that we've grown it at. But I think where a lot of people don't um where they go wrong in this approach one they don't see they they're

not ready to do the dirty work to keep themselves alive. Like they wouldn't just pick shelves at worst to put a roof over their head. They people like no I'm too good for that. And I was like, wow. You know, if you need to live, you need to live. Just do the thing you got to do. So, most people aren't willing to do that as a fail safe. Like, it's not that hard to go get a job and get some money. You just got to be willing to do the [ __ ] that no one else wants to do. So, that's the first step. The second bit is as they're going out and they're taking these big bets and risks, they're not actually building the most important

thing, which is their brand, because it's the one thing they'll get to hold on to. And so that's why I always tell like I tell all my team like build your personal brand while you're here and you got a boss who's willing to let you do it during work hours. [ __ ] build your personal brand, you [ __ ] You know, like build it up because that's the one thing that will never go with you. And if you if these businesses boom and bust and you fail a whole bunch of times, you won't actually lose your personal brand. Like it'll stay with you. People will know you. They'll see your story. And if you sell it the way that you want to sell it, you'll always be able

to do the next thing. And eventually you'll land on something. And you might be 45 by the time it happens, but then book goes off. But at 45, like you're young as [ __ ] you know, like I'm 38 now and I know like in seven years I'm not going to feel old. Like I might be have caky bones or something like that. I've got them already. But um mentally you're not you're not old, right? You like I feel like you're only just getting started at that point. Yeah. So it's an interesting point, but I thought I better clarify. I wish I had enough money to spend the rest of my life on. But but it is the same principle what you were trying to say. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's fascinating fascinating hearing like your perspective on I guess how like you think your career is going to go and like just your outlook. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one. It's a tough one to get right, but once you got it right, it's like really um liberating is probably the best way to put it. Like if you if you if you know that you're willing to do the [ __ ] that it takes to get it done, then it's real liberating to do it. Hey, this was like probably a different um direction that maybe you thought the podcast was going to go, but I found it really fascinating cuz I I figure everyone knows your story. they can watch your socials if they want to

see where your story went. I really wanted to dig into the career side of it from a money perspective. I think it's really interesting your perspective on things. I don't think that um many sports people think the way you do about building brand building it. I know there are a few in New Zealand who are doing it and they're awesome too and I'd love like to talk to them as well about it, but the vast majority of them are not and there's this thing in New Zealand this tool poppy thing stopping them from doing it I think for the most part. But what I my biggest takeaway from you is [ __ ] the rules. Do it anyway. Just move cities if they don't like you. Yeah,

100%. So honestly, mate, like thank you so much for coming on sharing all that story with me. I really appreciate it. Um and if there's anything I can do to help you on this journey and path, like reach out. Let's go. Thank you. Cheers, man. Cheers.