How I Became a Travel Creator | Daniel MacKinnon.

I just watch it and I just think I'm a random person. I'm like, like, who's this guy? You know what I mean? You know, you might post five videos, they might be [ __ ] the sixth one might be viral. You can't let the numbers get to your head. I think it's all about making stuff you're happy about as well. I think there's definitely moments where you're like, "This one's going up." But I think it's about the time it's about the thing to just keep moving and like post next one, next one, next one. Um, and not really think about it too much. So, welcome to the podcast, mate. Cool, bro. Good to be here. No, no, glad to have you on. I I actually want to

ask one quick question before as we get into this before I take you back to where this started is I've watched a bunch of your videos and then I watched you on um Zach's at the Martin show. Gotcha. And then I talked to you now. And you've got two voices. Two voices. Okay. You've got your content voice like voiceovers or something. Yeah. But even like your talk to camera voice. Is that an intentional thing? Do you know what? I feel like sometimes I'm like I'm going to be chill. I'm just going to talk like I'm talking to someone and then it just always sounds different. You know what I mean? And I feel like that's the thing I want to do. I want to sound

less less presenty cuz like when it sounds presenty sometimes it's like a you know it's like it's like a hard cell kind of thing. But um do you know what I thought it was? That's interesting. Yeah. I thought it was you sounding more to an American audience or something. Oh, really? It sound like your voice is far more neutral in accent. Yeah. But actually I I thought it might have been intentional. It's obviously not and I just called you out for it. But I actually I was wondering I was like, "Oh, is this is this guy quite clever in that he's got a larger American audience or global audience?" You got you got a far more neutral accent, I think, on some of your content.

Okay, gotcha. Which and you know, when I talk to you now, it's like Kiwi accent. I feel like sometimes having the Kiwi accent might be more interesting. Yeah. For a foreign person, they're like, "Oh, where's this guy from?" Like, cuz it's different. But we um we find it actually quite interesting that um it is interesting for people to hear Kiwi accent but it's less familiar so they don't like they get I wouldn't say turned off but we find like like Jon who's the face of our brand she has like this Filipino American Kiwi accent sort of butcher thing and a lot of people think she's just from America. Yeah. And so we we have a real large American audience because of it. Gotcha. And when

we are like a lot of people in New Zealand didn't know we're from New Zealand because her voice was the front of it. It wasn't until I talked that they're like, "Oh, they're different than Kiwi." Um, so I actually when I was watching it, I was like, "Oh, I wonder if this is intentional because it's kind of smart because I would say that like a big audience for you is probably global." Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. How what is the makeup of your audience? Is that interest? It's so random. Like the top five countries are like America, New Zealand, India, Australia, and then the fifth one's like I think it keeps changing. It's like Indonesia or like Brazil or something. Yeah. Okay. which is

yeah random. I get kind I kind of get India because that's like the biggest population in the world that has Instagram. You know, China doesn't have it. And um if you get like a viral video, there's going to be heaps of Indians watching. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see a um a big spike in your Indian audience from whenever you go to India? Did you see a spike there like that? Yeah. So, I just I just got back last week and like I've got some cool videos I want to post. I just haven't yet. But I posted one. Yeah. And Yeah. like you said like I'll show it to you know some people around New Zealand and then all the all the new

viewers just Indians just Indians but you know the algorithm finds it yeah finds that Indians interested in it I say okay yeah I mean for them it's like uh hey that's it's like when Kiwi see something a kiwi abroad it's like oh it's Kiwi let's all jump on it when when other cultures see their people okay I took you on a tangent I just called you out for changing your voice sorry but I actually thought it'd be quite interesting to ask hey like I said to you off camera I haven't I've seen all your content but I I don't know where this journey started for you like I don't know a little bit origin story. So give us in like the next 5 10 minutes

like what is that what is that elevator pitch of where you came from? How you got into this and where did it all start? Yeah. Gotcha. So I was a graphic designer for about nine years. Um and then I saw a YouTuber Sam Cer who's like a Oh yeah. a classic travel creator. Um I saw I saw his stuff like back in 2017. and I saw like this vlog he was making and like back then I was kind of just watching like Casey Neistat reviewing stuff and then I was like oh who's this guy making a travel whatever you know came up on recommend I was like hey whatever and then like he had a few like real cinematic cuts and stuff and I was

like [ __ ] okay you can actually make some kind of cool looking videos these days so that like sparked my interest in it and I was like [ __ ] I want to do this this dude's like literally just traveling around making cool content so um yeah that's it's all started there and you know on the weekend I'll just be like filming like I don't know like off to and just film like some slow moveing around, you know, you know what I mean? Like the early days. So, and and back then it wasn't oversaturated, you know, there wasn't many people making video content cuz phones took [ __ ] videos. Um, so you had to have like a decent mirrorless camera. Um, so yeah, that's where it started and then

I kind of just hustled away on the weekend making I don't really like look to get paid from it. I was just like, [ __ ] I just want to make something cool. Yeah, just make cool stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So that's How old were you at the time? I was in my late 20s back then. Um and then that's 2017 2018 did you? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And then so that was even like before reals days like it was still like just Instagram video which was terrible. Um and then at which point did the like the switch change where you know you started to get some of the virality that you get now from your video like at which point did that start to happen? Was that on

Instagram first or did you do Tik Tok first or like was how did that play out? Um, I don't really use Tik Tok that much and like I I built a bit of a following. I got maybe like 45,000 on Instagram and then reals came and you know I was like [ __ ] this is like a way to get discovered cuz back then before that it's like oh I hope I get on one of these share pages you know like these big pages that share your content cuz then like heaps other people see it. Um and now I just hate those accounts cuz like they they're just like getting your views off off your account. Um, but like you know it got to a point where

like I was saw reals how it was working and like everyone's using like trending audio and they're all copying each other and I was like this isn't original. Why are people doing this? And then I was just like you know what I'll try it. I'll try like use this trending audio with this kind of how they place these clips together and I was just like I was like oh boom like you know 1.4 mil on that and I was just like oh okay and I started thinking okay what's going to make them interested and like and then yeah that next one got like 12 mil that's I got the most followers off that one. Um, what was that jump like in followers? Like 12 million

view video when like was that when real first started like 20 this was 2022. This is the end of it. So real was around for like I don't know a year or so. Um that was 60k off one video and then yeah then another one had like a few 20k and I was just like yeah me mean me. But like you know it's always changing and it's like if I post that video now I'll probably get like no views. It's um because everyone's seen that kind of style or something you know. Have you tried posting it again? That one I I actually did it on trial trial reels. I was like, "Oh, like this was actually a couple months ago." I was like, "I'll give

it a crack." Yeah. How did it go? I I posted it like three different sounds to see what happened. It didn't really do much. It's got like 7,000 views or something. I was just like, "Oh, well." Like, yeah. So, that's interesting. We um we our first video on our Tik Tok account that went viral was this cat. We call it the cat video. Anyway, it was this like this trend that happened at the time and it had like 12 million and got us like our first 30,000 or something followers that we had. Yeah. And we reposted it not long ago and uh thinking, yeah, it's pretty shitty old video, but I ended up doing like 9 mil. Oh, true. Yeah, it did. Yeah. It got

no followers from No, this was on Instagram as well. So, from Tik Tok to Instagram, we got 9 mil on Trials. Yeah. And like [ __ ] Yeah. And it just like blew up. We just didn't take it off Trials and it just kept sending it out. So, did you leave it on Trials and it got to 9 mil? Yeah. Okay. That's interesting to hear cuz I thought like Trolls might cap it at a certain point or something. We We like are actually almost scared to take it off Trials. Yeah. Right. we like it starts going and we're like just leave it like it's working just like don't touch it. We one of our things is now that we got like 330k followers on Instagram is that

we need at least we want a big portion of new viewers on the video before we release it to the main feed. Gotcha. Because it's going to go straight to our audience. Yeah. And our audience doesn't always look the same as these other audience that Charles has found. And so we want to make sure that if they decide not to watch it for whatever reason, it doesn't ruin the percentages, you know, because like we found this new Instagram's found this new audience. It's like 100,000 people all love this video. Yeah. But then you dump it into our 330,000 and like most of them go, "Oh yeah, it's another video from Tina, whatever." Because they're used to us all the time. Yeah. That that might ruin

its reach. And it we've seen some evidence that that happens. So we just leave it. It's hard case because your own followers don't want to watch cuz they see so much of us, right? New audience is brand new. They don't know who we are. Yeah, fair. Um, so now we love we love trials. So it's interesting thing we um you inspired me to use trials more. Thanks. Yeah, we use it every day. Every video you see go live, there's three of three versions on Trials. Okay. Every day. Well, how long how long would you let it simmer in there before you Those ones are just a day daily content, but when it's something that's like um like a thing we're trying to do cuz we

got the daily series that happens and got a bunch of other types of videos. So, you post three different versions of the daily series. Well, this one got more. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And we just give it a whole 24-hour period. Yeah. To kick in and you'll see it's quite clear which one takes off compared to the others. And so, we'll release it. But then other videos that we're like we're testing stuff, we'll just leave them because they don't need to go onto the profile. Yeah. Like they're finding views, we're getting followers because of it. People are still sharing it, doing all the same things. Just our own followers don't get to see it until like maybe like I don't know like the cat video.

I think a month later we released it again on Instagram because Instagram hadn't seen that video. Okay. Because we done it on Tik Tok years and years ago. So then we released it and it it had another little kick. Nice. Um but yeah, Charles is Charles is interesting. Anyway, we got off track. We got off track. We'll get into Charles soon. Yeah. Um, so you got to this point, you started growing followers. When did you start to realize you can make some money out of this? Oh, you know what? I was making, you know, I was getting like since kind of early, I was getting a few like little brand deals and that, but it wasn't until I went to my mate and he just

signed up with like an agency to represent him and he's like, "Bro, get an agent. It's so much better. They're going to hustle for you and they're going to do this and like cuz I actually chat to one before and they're like talking about taking the percentage and all this and I'm thinking, "Oh, I don't know if I need this and all this." Yeah. So, like once I got an agent, I was just like, "Oh, okay. This is way easier. Don't have to like think too much and they're going to hustle like a good price." And then whenever like they send me a job, I just know it's good money. It's not like I'm not mucking around, you know what I mean? And and when

there's better money, I can do, you know, I can make better videos for the for the brand as well. So, it's like in both ways, you're winning. So, yeah. Yeah. Nice. So, so it's always kind of been there, but then like was it when when was that Europe trip? Like when did what date are we at? That was in um 2022. 2022. Okay. Yeah. So, not that long ago. Only really when that reel started to take off. Is that it? It was even It was actually before that. I got agent just before that actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. And then how has that been over the last sort of two or three years? So, are you still with the same agent? Yeah. Yeah. And um

from your perspective like is that as a percentage of revenue that you earn or income? How much are your brand deals versus like say the L packs that you sell and all these sorts of things? Like I don't make much of light packs. Yeah. Now now and then you make a sale and that's cool cuz that's just like easy money. But um yeah like if it's if I'm talking about just me posting on social media the brand deals that's pretty much the only money I make. Yeah. But apart from that it's obviously good for awareness where I get clients for video jobs. Yeah. for, you know, just I'm making stuff for other brands. Yeah. Um but yeah, no, it's it's decent chunk of money like

and some of them come through like with nice budgets and I'm like, "Okay, like Yeah, that's a bit of money like cool. Yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it." Yeah. Yeah. So, and so that's this is your full-time gig then as well. Or do you do other things like obviously make videos for other brands? Yeah, I just make video for other brands like as a freelancer. Yeah, freelance video uh videographer. Um a little bit of photos and Yeah. brand content on my page. Yeah. And then I'll probably do a tiny bit of graphic design work, maybe 5%. Yeah. Um and then sometimes I I do I've actually got like a Chinese PR agency that I work for sometimes and that is super random work like

they they might be doing like a live stream with a celebrity and they want like a white guy to wear a suit and pretend to be someone and I'll like that's another thing I do sometimes. That's funny. Um yeah, it's real. It's just funny when I work and I'm just like this is crack up like and they were speaking Mandarin. and I got no idea. And like they'll have like a card like saying the price is too high. Can you Yeah, it's it's good. That's so funny. I love that. Um just for clarity like the freelance work versus the brand work. What's the split do you think in revenue? Like like how like is it 50/50 7030? Um, I think I sorry I think I

probably make more money in freelance work, but but I think yeah, the brand deals might actually get him quite high. Yeah. In the last year's Yeah. work. Um, be it' be good to look at it actually now that the tax year is over. Somewhat close or the freelance stuff makes a lot more. I think it might be kind of close. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Maybe. Yeah. I just think it's interesting for people to hear too. Like the thing is an interesting one because it's like your only link in your bio. Well, I don't know how often that is the case, but currently it is to go straight to there. And I think a lot of people would assume, oh, this is what he does. He sells

love packs. Oh, true. No, no, because like people don't know and they just think, oh, he's got all these viewership. This must be what he does and how he makes his money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of saw and I was like, there's no way this guy's making selling enough of this at 20 bucks to fund his lifestyle. I don't I don't even push it that hard. I think I made like one real about it. I was like, oh yeah, maybe I'll do one again one day and I, you know, um, they can make money. They can, but it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Compared to the other stuff, I feel like I feel like there's a sweet spot like like 2018 19 where like Lightroom

presets you could just [ __ ] make like bank on them. Yeah. And like, you know, it's kind of gone now, but like the apps themselves sort of just built so much of it into a day that people can't it's easier for people to just to use the inbuilt ones because they can't be bothered. Yeah. Is that ease thing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, but I think it is interesting for people to look at that like, um, I still get a lot of people who come and see me going, "Oh, these digital products are like the hack to get really rich off my social media." And I was like, "It's just not how it works." Like, it was that easy, we'd all [ __ ] do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Hearing that actually like a big portion of your revenue is still you just going out and working for it, making videos and stuff, which is cool because you're doing the thing that you like doing anyway. But I think that's quite like um good for like other creators to hear because there's a lot of like FOMO out there of people being like, "Oh, this guy's [ __ ] cranking out. He's doing this." And which you are, but you're not just doing it by sitting back doing nothing. You're actually out there hustling, working for this money, which is which is quite a good thing. Like, so from your perspective, how does that grow though? Like what do you hope it becomes? Do you hope that you're getting more

and more brand deals? Do you hope it like where do you in the long term like fiveyear plan, where do you hope the revenue shifts to? Yeah, exactly. Hey, that's a good question. Like, hey, I wouldn't mind the social media route getting way more followers. Oh, bigger brand deals, you know? That I think that's that's fun, too. Or I could just go the other way and just like start a small production company. But then I honestly I really like the flexibility and just being able to just travel. Yeah. You know, like in two weeks, I'm like, "Okay, I'm just going to bugger off." Like, I might have some client work to do, but I'll be like, "Oh, guys, can you just like wait like two

weeks and I'll be back and do it then?" And like, you know, if you got a like a team of people you're working with here, you can't really just like leave. Yeah. So, that's been my situation for like the last couple years. I've just been like, "Oh, yeah." Like, cuz sometimes I get super busy and like you only need a few clients when you're a solo freelancer where you're like, "Oh, [ __ ] I'm like swamped right now." Um, and you're like, "Oh, I could get like an editor. I could do this and you know, you know what I mean?" But I was like, actually, I wouldn't mind just like being able to just leave whenever I want and travel and whatnot. And that's what I've done.

So, what what's the appealing part of that for you? Like that freedom. What is it like? How old are you now? You must be in your 30s now. Yeah. Yeah. And so what is the appealing part of that? Like I don't get me wrong, I get it, but like just from your words like being able to travel. Yeah. Travel and the freedom and like what is it that because you know there's other people and this is kind of weird for some people who does do this who's like actually it doesn't appeal to me at all. I really just want the stability of a house and a good job and a family. Like so for you what is the appealing part in your 30s like doing

this? Because a lot of people would probably be like yeah maybe in your 20s bro. Dude, usually it's like around I'll get that spot like around if if I've been home for like 6 weeks or like maybe seven, eight and then then I'm like, "Fuck, I need to go somewhere. What am I doing here?" Like, and especially being in Oakuckland, I don't know. I just get kind of bored. Yeah. Um and I've traveled around New Zealand quite a lot, but I like that's kind of just I get bored of that, too. Um yeah, that sort of I don't know. I think it's just about stimulating my mind in a way and just seeing new stuff all the time. Yeah. Um which I don't know might

sound funny, but it's just how how it's been. Yeah. What do you think it is that like you chase in that like and Liz I'm trying to get too deep with you but like what is it that you chase in that what when you go to these experiences like what do you take from them? I think it's just about experiencing life in different parts of the world like it's all so different and like when you when you find something some I don't know just a different area. It's just interesting just like holy [ __ ] look at that. Like and it's and it's fun and it goes hand inhand with like um content creation too. Like you're like oh okay I can make a cool video over

here. Like it's just kind of just fun. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just just lots of good life experience that you enjoy. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. How long do you see it lasting for you? Like is this something that you just like like is there ever a point where you're satisfied of the travel and stuff? And the answer can be no, but like it's an interesting question to ponder. Yeah. Yeah. Like like me and my mate yesterday were on the phone and we're like, "Oh, where should we go to?" Like we're going to Europe in June. We're like, "Oh, let's just go somewhere else." And like we'll look at the map and we'll just like you start to actually get kind

of picky like, "Oh no, not there. Oh yeah, nah. Oh, that just looks like Italy. It's kind of like a budget version. We won't go to that one." Oh, you know. So, it's like I feel like it kind of is sometimes like you're kind of getting a bit over it. Um, but yeah. No, I wouldn't mind like a slower life like um staying here more. Yeah. But yeah, just see what happens. What's the space really? Yeah. Yeah. It is an interesting thing. I ask you those questions cuz like I'm the same, right? Like I've traveled heaps in my life too and Yeah. been like all around um the world and different travels and and my partner and I, my wife and I like we're always

pretty itchy to like go off and travel and whatnot. Actually, um my wife is like super excited because we're going to Dubai on Thursday for a bit for my brother's wedding. Um and we haven't really had like a proper holiday for a while. Like every other trip's been for work. So, she's like, "Fuck, can we just do a proper holiday and experience some stuff?" But because we traveled so much, the weird thing I had was, you know, the first time I traveled outside of New Zealand and Australia, uh it was like epic. I was like the biggest coolest thing I ever did. And then like and then I did this like four month backpacking around Asia and like it was awesome to start with and

as like time went on it was kind of like oh yep another place another place and every place got less exciting. Does that happen to you? Yeah absolutely that's what happens if you do a big trip like I learned that I did like a real big like well it wasn't real but I don't know it was like 3 months. Um, but like yeah, I'm like, "Oh, cool. Another church or another that mountain's cool." You know, you you just know if you went to that spot at the start of your trip, you'd be like, "That's sick." Like taking heaps of photos and stuff, but like by the end of it, I'm just like over it. And like like you said, if you're living out of that

same backpack for like two, three months, you've got the same clothes, you've got this and that, and then you're having to always repack it every few days to move. And it's just like, I just want to go home for like two weeks and then come back again or something, you know? So, so that's how you travel now? It's like trips and come back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. That's like last year like that's what I did. I was just like, you know, one to three week trips, come back. Yeah. And then maybe like Yeah. Come back again. But yeah, last year I went to like 13 countries. Uh I think I was away for like over 3 months or something. But it was all just random.

Like some of them I planned, some of them were fun with my friends, some of them were jobs. And I was just like, "Oh, the heck." Yeah. Just out of out of it. You know, it's just it keeps your mind occupied. I guess you're always, "Oh, yeah. Doing something new." Yeah. Always doing something. Yeah. Yeah. And Okay. So, you're not sure when this travel life is going to finish, but maybe one day it might, but maybe also not. So, how does this like career grow? Like, does it just become more followers? Do you like you talked about not really sure about little production companies and I'm tied down like Yeah. Where does this um like where does it go? Where does this career go? Let's

That's the one. Oh, yeah. You know, it's like it's like how hard do I want to grow my following and do that kind of brand deal kind of thing. I I think if you do do that, you're going to get better freelance work anyway. Yeah. If u more eyes are on your stuff and if you can show that you can produce high-end content, not just um clickbay kind of stuff. I like, you know, I feel like it's a mixture if you want to get freelance clients. Yeah. Um or just Yeah. Like you said, just going full production mode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is a is a hard one though. Like um when life's good, how do you know to like why you would change too

much? Pretty good for you right now, right? Yeah. Exactly. I feel like I'm just playing around. I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Do this, do that." You know what I mean? Yeah. Um Yeah. But at the moment, I'm quite excited cuz I've actually I feel like I go through waves where I make content and then I'll be like, "Oh yeah, okay. I'm kind of like over it now." Like, "Who am I even making this for?" Like, but then you get to like get like kind of inspired. I'm like, "Oh yeah, [ __ ] I'm going to make all this stuff." So, um I'm at that point where I'm like inspired and I've just I just shot heaps of stuff in India. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to like can't

wait to post it all." So, how did those cycle go? Like why why do you get to a point of it being kind of boring or like what happens there? Oh, I just feel like sometimes you um you can spend all this time and not get rewarded for it and and and that's how it is like and and yet that shouldn't deter you because you know you might post five videos, they might do [ __ ] The sixth one might be viral. Yeah. And like you can't let the numbers get your head. But I I think it's all about making stuff you're happy about as well. Yeah. But also making stuff that the crowd wants to see. Yeah. So, um yeah, I just try just just keep

making stuff that's different as well. Yeah. Does that like does that um has that and does that play in your mind a bit like when videos don't perform well? Like does that does it eat up much energy? Um oh, I guess it can like you know like when you get like a viral video, you're like, "Oh yes, give me some more views. This is Yeah, give me some more. Like it's it's funny and everyone's like the same. It's like, "Oh, yeah, that was good." Um, yeah, I think there's definitely moments where you're like, "This one's going to pop." And then you're like, "Oh, okay. All good." But I think it's about the time. It's about the thing that just keep moving and like, "Yeah, post

that one, next one, next one, next one." Um, and not really think about it too much. But yeah, if if one does pop, you're like, "Okay, why did it work?" And then you kind of figure out why and then implement that into other stuff. How do you go from like being in that low to getting yourself back out again? Cuz like I've talked to lots of creators where that's a real that dip's a real big thing for them and that they have these like periods of time where they I don't feel like creating anymore. I'm [ __ ] over it or it's not working or whatever. How do you pick yourself back up and go again? Book a flight. Yeah. I think if something's just interesting pop

up or you just get like a cool idea, that's when it's going to it's going to go again. Yeah. How do you get it from a mindset perspective though? Like bring yourself out of that rut. Um that's a good question. How do I bring myself out of that rut? I don't really feel like I'm never in like a big Yeah. Okay. Like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But um yeah, you know, it can deter you if you're like if you're like grinding away and it's like, you know, being a being like doing content creation for your own page. Yeah. You're like kind of losing money, right? Like you're not you're not getting paid all the time. But then like when you do get paid, it's like,

oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Like it makes it worth all the videos you make for no money because that's keeping your audience there. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, the travel, well, from the outset, you're a travel influencer by the looks of it. Like, that's the that's the feel that I get. But what did you call yourself? Cuz that's what I would call yourself. So, your eyes squinted up when I said that. So, I guess it is kind of travel a travel creator. Yeah. I feel like it's it's I feel like it's travel creator slashcreative video in a way, if you know what I mean. It's like my audience could be like uh younger like videographers or Yeah. You know, people just wanting to go to cool places.

I think that's the Yeah. the audience. Yeah. So, and do you say that creative video guy because of like the level and technique that you put into it? Like you're showcasing the ability. Yeah. I think Yeah. some of them cuz you can obviously do like a travel style where you're just walking around talking on your phone kind of thing, but my my style is just a bit different and um there might be like a few kind of old techniques in there or match cuts or you know stuff like that. I I've posted a few videos kind of like behind the scenes and stuff or like showing how it's edited and stuff. Yeah. Um so that's why I say like also that kind of direction too.

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. How do you grow that skill set now that you're in it? Like is it like do you look to other people? Or is there other people that you're looking at who are sort of inspiration or Yeah, totally. There's always other creators I I watch and I'm just like, "Oh, that's like Yeah, that's cool. Who's some of the people that you think are doing it really good?" Um, in either space, probably like uh American creators. Um, there's a guy in New York called Kyle Shakur. He makes real like adventure storytelling kind of stuff. I really like that kind of style. Um, there's a guy in LA, Adrien Purr. He does like real cool um tutorial style stuff. Cool. Yeah. And like

I I kind of watch them and like some other creators. I'm like, "Oh yeah, like you know, if you get inspiration from them um just like I used to do with Sam Cer back in the day." Like I I'll literally like watch his video and I'll be like, "How do they do that?" I'll download it and I'll watch it like frame by frame and I'll be like, "Oh, okay." So he got the camera and he like went like this and like, you know, all that kind of stuff cuz some of the editing just happens so quick but with your eyes in it, but it all just kind of works and you're like, you kind of just don't even know how it was made. Yeah. Um

so that's what I kind of I just kind of obsess over stuff that I like and spark my interest and I'm like figure out how it's done and then kind of just mold all together and make my own kind of thing. Test it, play around with it. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. How do you um like you talked about growing continuing to grow the followers and whatnot? What does that look like? Like are you just doing more of the same? Like how do you how do you see your followers growing and continue to push that? Yeah. Right. Well, I think it's about these days just being different because like it's, you know, it's kind of hard to stand out and like people's attention spans are so

[ __ ] and like I like to be fair like how many people new people do I follow every week? Probably not many, right? And like I think it's just about telling an interesting story or doing something different um that's going to make them follow you, right? Cuz like even even if you like someone posted like a funny reel or something, you know, it might get like 4 million views, but like the the um ratio of followers to it, it's probably like nothing. Like cuz they just watch it, laugh, and then they watch the next one. Is there like anything more that you think about when it comes to like strategy? Like is it just make good video, hope it works, or is there like is there

something deeper in your in your strategy and how you do this? Are you talking about getting like just growth in general? Just growth in general. So the ratio trying to get followers, followers, the engagement levels, your ability to like grow new, find new audiences. Yeah. For me, it's all about I just always think about the subject. I'm like, okay, who's this going to appeal to? Yeah. Um and then I think um would I watch this if I was a random person? Yeah. You that's the first thing I think whenever I cuz I don't make a video thinking, oh, my followers will like this. I think will a random person even give a [ __ ] and watch it, you know? That's good. Um, so yeah, that's the

first thing I think about and then it's about trying to I just think about, okay, where are they going to drop off? Are they going to watch the whole video or like Yeah. What are what is that test for you? Like so if you're saying would a random person like to watch this? What's that test for you? How do you figure that out? I don't like literally I just watch it and I just think I'm a random person. I'm like like who's this guy? You know what I mean? That's that's what I do. Um, and what are some of the things that like you might pull out and be like, "Oh, yeah. Someone random would care about that." Yeah, that's a hard thing to do.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just think, you know, it has to have a cool subject. Yeah. Obviously, the hook has to be real good. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think good subject hook and then I don't know, does it have like a payoff at the end? Why why are they going to watch it the whole time or like or is it visually interesting? Yeah. Is it inspiring them? Is it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting conversation to have with people because like I think you're absolutely right like you have to make the best videos are the ones that appeal to the masses, right? Obviously like any random person, not just a someone interested in travel or videography, but actually someone just interested

in life in general. Yeah. Um but I always find it real interesting when I talk to creators as well, especi um like how do they think about growth? And often it's like, oh, I'm just going to worry about the viral video. Like I'm just going to worry about getting the video get the views. like and and honestly it's like a real normal response I get. And what's really interesting about hearing it from a creative perspective, I think you're right in most instances. Yeah. But like brands don't think of that, right? And like I find it real interesting like there's two parts of well there's probably three parts of social media, right? There's the creators who make all the content people want to watch. There's the

brands trying to sell on it and then there's all the people consuming. And what's real interesting is like we talked to a lot of brands who are like, "Yeah, yeah, but like views are good and all, but like what's it going to do? How's it going to grow? like where's our sales going to come from? Where's our followership going to come from? And then you talk to creators and they're just like, "Yeah, yeah, like I just I just got to make something that people want to watch and it's going to go viral and it's going to do the thing it's going to do and hope the best kind of thing." And I don't necessarily think either are wrong. The kind of thing like creators are

the purest in it that they understand what audiences want. They're going to show it to them. Yeah. And because they grow, opportunities come their way. Yeah. But then there's the brands who are like, "Well, cool, but we make the money well to work. you're going to get 20 million views, but where's the conversion? Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. And I think there's like this nice healthy tension like we we sit in that tension a lot because, you know, we've got, you know, we do about 30 million views just as a company's profiles, our sales every month. And it's like, so we we understand this part as a creators, but then we got all the brands that we work with going, "Okay, yeah, but like what's it going

to do? What are you doing? People watch our video." And like I So I kind of like press on a lot of creators I watch. I talked to like where does at which point does your brand become a business and that you start to think of it that way or does it just go stand it doesn't matter as long as I [ __ ] crush it here it will come like how do you think of that like you just like kind of like I crush it it'll come or well you know what it is like a business right but I I just feel like I just want to make cool content and then that's that's keeping it going you know what I mean like um obviously I'm

not going to post something [ __ ] I want you to just post some random video on my phone in this room right now. You know, it's like I feel like there's a level of like expectation there and I think I'll just keep it at that. It's fine. Um, as long as it keeps turnurning like I'm not trying to like hard sell like my digital products or anything of course. So, so the money is just from uh brands coming on my page and that's that's it really. Yeah. How does that play out? Like do you see yourself still doing this at 45? Yeah, good question. Yeah, I guess so. I guess so in a way. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Why not, right? Yeah. Why not?

It's It's been a bunch of fun the last few years, so I I see why not. I think that's a real interesting thing cuz like I think a lot of people you're you're kind of unique in that um that you just clearly said, "Yeah, why not?" Yeah. Because like a lot of people would say, "Oh, yeah. When I grow up, I have to do a real thing." But most but you know, you're you you are grown up. You're in your 30s. It's not like you're a kid anymore. Like you know, you're not early 20s to some of these kids who are doing it. Yeah. that you've realized that actually no this this is the life I want. Yeah. Doesn't have to change. How do you

so like if you were still do this like is it just something that becomes a career that you live out like someone who is a [ __ ] accountant and just going to do it for the next four years. Well, like I said before like it's not my full income, right? No. So it's it's but but it drives a lot of the other stuff. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it does drive. Um so but I'm not I'm not heavily relying on it. Like if if if I don't get any brand deals, I'm not going to have a cry about it. It's honestly it's just like a bonus and when it comes through I'm like oh sweet that's money and it's like obviously it'll take a bit of chunk

of time away if I had freelance clients want to do something and I'm busy with that but um it's not like I'm fully relying on it like that's my only do you find a lot of find a lot of freelance clients and other from other sources outside of like your own content and whatnot. Um, is it just referral based like like Oh, some of it's been through like contacts I've had before I got into this and they're like, "Oh, he does video now." Like they didn't might watch my story that's shared to Facebook and they might, okay, we get Dan. Um, and then some, yeah, some obviously funnels through through socials. They're like, "Hey, can you film this?" Um, I've even created a few for

like my mates's Instagram page and they're like, "Oh, can you asking him?" And then he's like, "Oh, no, my mate films and edits all this. I ask him." And then like so yeah, it's it's social media definitely is good for getting Yeah. that Yeah. Yeah. No, I just I mean I'm not at all trying to say it's the wrong thing. It's just a real interesting conversation to have like cuz a lot of the people that I've met um they they don't really look too far ahead. Gotcha. Yeah. And I'm not saying that you should and I don't necessarily either, but like I always kind of wonder like it takes a certain level level of ambition to get to the level you're at and build a

life this life that you've had because it's not a life that everyone can have, right? Like you've built a pretty cool [ __ ] life for yourself. Yeah. So it takes a certain level of ambition to get there. And then I find real interesting that like that ambition doesn't it's like a real capp ambition. Like it's like no no like I'm here like this is [ __ ] awesome. Like let's go. Yeah. Yeah. I got to. And for me it's it's an interesting bit for me to think about because like if anyone knows me they're like like I'm like I got to take over the world or I wasn't good enough. It's not that I oh I shouldn't say I wasn't good enough but it's more that my thing

is people like how big do you want the agency to grow stand like global domination. Yeah. Right. Right. Take over the whole world or like Yeah. But you already got such a good business like that's one I know. Like where do you cap it? Right. Yeah. Where do you cap it? Yeah. Yeah. Like cuz like like I said before, I was like, "Oh, I could like grow the other side and grow it bigger." But then like at the same time, I'm like, "Oh, I'm actually kind of enjoying enjoying life." You know what I mean? And I like I know people that are successful and they're running bigger businesses, but like you know, they're they're on their phone working at like at 12:00 at night sending

emails and like they're always kind of just like stuck in the in the the thing they've created, you know? So it's like it's Oh, sorry. It's like a um you know it's like there's pros and cons to it like Yeah. No no I know I agree with you. I agree with you. It becomes a ball and chain. Yeah. Like it becomes a ball and chain. Like the bigger your business becomes the bigger the ball and chain is until you get to a point where the business is so big that um there's other people that you've attached that ball and chain to. Yeah. You know you trust them to run it for you. Exactly. Right. like we kind of get to a point now where um

you know I've slowly like delegated responsibility to a bunch of people but I'm still the main bread winner for the business. I bring in all the business, I do all the sales. So that means that like [ __ ] I'm stuck here because without new sales like the business starts to implode, right? Um so I agree with you. It's like a ball and chain. I think it's a real interesting dynamic to talk to people because it's like you're right. Freedom is the you've got a level of freedom inside your life now that's like exciting. It's cool. It's fun. It's um it's inspiring actually for a lot of people because a lot of people don't have that. A lot of people they've got to go to work to

make the paycheck. Yeah. Um and then there's like like me who's like on the other flip side like let's go for broke. Let's like build the biggest thing we can but then you kind of get stuck in it. Yeah. And I always just find like a real interesting tension between like the ambition of these people like because it takes a certain level ambition to do what you've done. Not everyone can do what you did like not at all. Obviously you wouldn't be special. Yeah. and you wouldn't have an income from it because um if everyone does it then does it right. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes obviously a certain ambition to do what I've done and build a business. Yeah. And I always find like

yeah they're interesting like there's a real interesting dynamic there of like okay you know I found I found freedom I found a level of this but also uh I'm not satisfied in the same breath is also something you said today. Right. I just I don't know. I just find it like I got no answer to it. It's just an interesting thing for me to think about. It's like where does that um is there much difference between the way we both think or we just or is our decision on the next stage different doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. You know like you talked about never really being satisfied with travel always want to do something new always chasing this next thing jump away doing stuff.

Is that any really different to the thing of me going I'm not satisfied with the size of the business or whatever am I just are we just looking at the outlook they're a little different. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for you, do you look at people with bigger businesses and you're like, "Oh, yeah. I'll get to that level." You probably got friends that have bigger business than you, right? I do definitely look at bigger businesses going, "Cool, this would be I can't." But I don't I don't do a lot of comparison. Yeah. Because I don't really know how like business is a hard thing to compare. Um, but I do look at I look at people to inspire me for sure. Like I'll look at other big

business owners um who are doing awesome [ __ ] and I'll be like, "Fuck that. It's [ __ ] cool." um not necessarily because what they're doing, but what it enables them to do maybe is a bit of a thing. Um but yeah, definitely of course you can't help but look at what the rest of the world's doing and all their friends and like and you kind of seeing our growth compared to other people and like some people you're growing faster than them, some you're not. Yeah. Um but yeah, it doesn't ever satisfy my need for more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's just human nature. E, you know, you get to a certain point, you're like, "Okay, what's next? What's next?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay.

So, we're coming up to the hour. Um, what questions do you have for me? How many people work here? I I literally walked in here, I was like, "Oh, okay." Yeah. I didn't even know that it was such a big business. Yeah, we've got like we're pushing 40 now. Oh, nice. I think we're like 38 currently with a couple more people starting. Yeah. Yeah. It's been um been a pretty crazy ride. And you just moved into this office not long ago, huh? Uh, start of March. So, it's a good looking office. I walked in. I like the open kind of plan and then the opening and stuff. Yeah, it's cool way. Like so this office has been like um it took us a year to

find something. Oh, nice. Um so we didn't rush it at all. Did you k it all out to look like that? Yeah. So this is cuz I walked the first thing I thought I was like, "Oh, you could set up a tripod looking down there. You could like creative angles, you know what I mean?" Cuz it's not often you find a place like that. No, it's actually [ __ ] cool. like we we just a lot of the set a lot of the fit out was done in terms of like the brick wall and all this sort of stuff. So, we had a really good base to work from when we built it. Um but yeah, we did all the furniture and all the design and everything

and the way the cafe set out the front and all that sort of stuff was us. Um but yeah, we only been here two months. We we got a studio just down the road. So 200 meters away. That was our old office. So it's about about half the size of this but it's a full st like cycle wall, a bunch of all that sort of stuff. So we make content there still for our clients. Um, so that's been pretty cool. But this was like we needed a real office. Like more and more of our like less of our team are production now, which used to be a big portion of our team. More of our team is strategy and client services, which are office people,

right? They work in an office. And so we really needed that balance now. So, so your team of um strategy about content creation. Is is that hard to find someone that Yeah. that actually gets like like what goes on in people's head and what they want to watch and and has that kind of social media style that doesn't look like a normal ad like cuz I feel like they don't really teach that stuff. It's like you got to be super passionate to like watch a [ __ ] ton of stuff online and kind of decipher it and try it for yourself. 100%, bro. You got you've got to be a practitioner, you know? So, like if you look at our creative team, they all make content themselves

for themselves, right? And you have to if you don't you don't know how it works. You don't understand the platforms very well. But then on top of that so like Nate who's our executive creative director, right? So he is 52 has no clue how the platforms work. Like he doesn't even try to pretend he knows how the platforms work. But what he does know is he understands like positioning and brand strategy and story. And that's probably the most important part. You you kept you're talking about like getting the hook right. Like what are people going to do? What's the payoff? What's this challenge piece in the middle? I mean, that's just like classic storytelling 101, right? Where you set up conflict resolution, and that's what

Nate knows. So, he understands it from like a fundamental human principle. You need the old dog who knows all the tricks to just be like, "Guys, you've been fucked." Like, that's not actually going to work. And then you need the young guys or the guys who are practitioners to be like, "Yeah, but this is what happens on platform." Like, this is how that that same story on YouTube's told this way. On Tik Tok, it's told this way. Instagram, it's told that way. or in static it's told this way and so you need all those guys and so yeah like it's actually like the hardest [ __ ] job we're hiring for it right now it's such a hard job to hire for I could imagine but yeah

like every you typically the people we find for that role um they've got followers themselves they understand how to tell stories and they're practicing it um the reason I'm part of that creative team with them is like I'm nowhere near the best content creator in the team I'm actually [ __ ] terrible at making content but I make so much of it I I understand it all I understand the I'm just actually really terribly terrible at editing and filming and all that technical part of it. But because you practice it so much and you know across my platforms I might have like say 50k followers across them across mainly Tik Tok and um LinkedIn. Yeah. Um it gives me the understanding of what works and what doesn't

and how the stories are told. And so without that you can't do it. like the other guys, some other guys on the team who don't practice a lot, they struggle to grasp the concepts that the creative guys are talking about because they don't they don't know the ins and outs of it. So, yeah, it's [ __ ] hard. Yeah. You know any good people, bro? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's interesting just to even talk to like a strategy person. Like I I never really talked to one until I had a job in January and I was on a Zoom call and it was it was cool just to bounce ideas about this project and because normally I'm just it's just me. Yeah. You know what I mean? So

yeah, it's it's very valuable. Something I'd say to you like just hearing your conversation today as a takeaway is like what is the the the goals? Like getting really clear on what your goals are and not being like it doesn't matter that like you might not want excessive growth or whatever, but just like having some direction is real important and being real clear on what that direction is and like understanding that it's really hard to do a lot of directions at once. Like if you're trying to go this way, you can't go these ways at the same time. You know what I mean? And so like picking out one, but you can go this way for a while and then go that way and then

turn this way for a bit. You can do that and you'll still end up further than you did. Yeah. And so we we would kind of go like, okay, is this a season for growth of followers right now? Is that what we're trying to do? So then we design content strategies for follower growth. Gotcha. And then we go, okay, cool. Got all these new followers. Let's do what we call service content, which teaches them a lot about us and the characters and the business. We don't talk about the product or service at all, ever. Very rarely people. We talk about marketing on our socials. We just talk about people and characters, but that's real deep surf service content. Okay. So, we're trying to build a

lot of trust with people. They really know us. And then our times, it's just just get views. Just try to get the viral view moments, right? We're just doing like trends or whatever we need to do just hit these like 10 million view spikes all the time. They don't necessarily bring in lots of followers at the same rate that our follower series do, but they just like they have those moments that the world starts talking about us. Like, who are these who's this [ __ ] marketing agency? have like a like a setup where you have like five different posts and like one will be one you'll try to get viral, three will be service, two will be new followers and then sometimes you mix it up

like that or sometimes we typically find that it's better to go all in on one strategy. We've tried it in the past but one at a time is probably easier. Okay. Yeah. So having a having an ideal goal is probably the better way, but you can do both. It's just harder. It's less efficient. Yeah. Yeah. Hey bro, it is on the hour. Conor's taking his headphones off as an indication to tell me to shut the [ __ ] up. But hey bro, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your story and sorry I kept throwing curve balls at you, but it was real interesting to hear and I love what you've been able to build, bro. Awesome. Awesome. Cool, man. Bro, cheers. Nice to

meet you. Yeah, you too. Cheers, bro.