How AI Is Rewriting SEO and Branding w/ Richard Conway.

Thought terrified me, but I do believe face the fear and do it anyway. What's the worst that can happen? It cost me a lot of money. I think it was 20,000 US and I couldn't afford it. The first talk I did, I couldn't sleep for weeks beforehand. Always do things to be different. Zig when everyone's else is zagging, do things differently. I managed to get a black eye the day before the interview and if you're not pushing your comfort zone, how are you going to like change stuff and make make a difference? So, >> yeah. Today's guest, Rich Conway, is one of the smartest people I've ever met. I look up to him. He's running an agency exactly the same way that I'm trying to

run mine. He's about 10, 11 years ahead of me in his journey. And honestly, he's just such a wealth of knowledge. If you want to learn a little bit around why brand building is so important and how AI is changing the world of SEO and how you can capitalize on it, today is a cracker of an episode. Hey man, it's good to finally get you on the podcast and get you here. Um, we've obviously known each other for a little while now and why don't you like tell us a little bit about your backtory because my audience might not know who you are. Like tell us 16 years you've been in business now. >> Tell us a little bit like give us an elevator pitch

of what that story's been. >> Cool. Came to New Zealand 2009 with my ex. Uh, both British, knew nobody in New Zealand. Thought I'd roll into a job. No problems. Um, wasn't to be. Uh, so started Pure SEO. um $200 and a bottle of gray goose for the logo and just went out and started meeting people. Yeah. But it was hard as in those first few years and like there was some >> like troubling times and and built it um over the years became the largest most awarded. Um and it's been a fun journey but it's been hard as well. >> It's never it's never linear. >> No, >> never. >> It's it's been crazy. Yeah. Um, >> and and that story like cuz I've

heard you speak a few times and I think one of the reasons why I also wanted on this podcast is to share these stories of like we have had opportunities to build this brand really big cuz like we're very different in our brand building approach but like they kind of got their own different ways of effectiveness and I love hearing your stories. >> So I would like dig into some of these and the one that always sticks me as I told you just off camera is the the Richard Branson story. >> Yeah. >> Like I love the story because I tell it to everyone. on like um these big brand bets like you spend money you make it you make the most out of it

though I what I loved about the story which I'll get you to explain a little bit is how you capitalized on the opportunity and made something of it rather than just like having an experience. Can you tell us like tell us that story a little bit? >> Yeah. Yeah. Throw so through entrepreneurs organization I got the opportunity to spend a week at Branson and other entrepreneurs on Neker Island. >> Um it cost me a lot of money. I think it was 20,000 US um at the time and I couldn't afford it. Yeah, >> but these opportunities don't come up. So, obviously I put my hat in the ring and myself and Steve White um got chosen. Steve owned Stony Ridge or used to own Stony

Ridge anyway. >> Yeah. >> Um and ultimately I was going to use it for a PR kind of exercise, but I'm I'm quite introverted. >> But I wanted to have a photo with Branson and being British it was quite hard to ask him, but I knew I had to have one cool one. >> One night we did Costume roulette. Everyone was dressed up. Branson was where's Wally? I was um Stay Puff from Ghostbusters. That's the one. And so I I got that picture and then I could relax. Um on the flight home I'm writing articles for the press. Um you know within 24 hours verbatim my articles go up. We signed six clients that more than paid for the whole experience. Um as a result

of those articles and like there's been a few times I've kind of spent far more than I could afford um to do these kind of things but they've always paid for themselves. >> How did you know like how did you know to write the articles? like where did that knowledge come from? And then also like if someone's listening and wanted to do something similar, what would they do? >> So I'm I'm of the opinion you just have a go, you try, right? Because if you don't succeed in something, you're at the same stage as if you didn't try, right? >> And you know, >> I love that. >> But it's true. >> Yeah. It's like you your your current state is I don't have the

opportunity and if I try, I might might have it or I still might not. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. >> And and I find most people intrinsically want to help you, right? and and an interest story like that, >> the media are going to pick up. Like if there's something unique, something different. Yeah. Like that's what they're after. And it was a punt. I didn't know it would be picked up and I >> and all that. But you know, I wrote a book for Penguin Random House, very similar um kind of thing. >> I got interviewed on the 9 till noon show and again a phone started ringing. They paid more than paid for the whole exercise. And >> I've

done a bunch of things over the years. Not everything works, but you have to test and pull back. If it's not working or if it starts working, go full in. >> Go full in. From that article when you did it, like cuz that's as much the story as I know. What else? Did you just let it play out or did you like capitalize on that article any other way? Like how else did you make a most of that situation to get those six clients or did it just all just happen? >> It all just happened. But I I was in multiple um newspapers and then I I speak at quite a lot of events and things and >> you know for years I was introduced

as the guys mates with Branson. You know it's like it was the gift that kept giving. >> Yeah that's interesting. Oh that's quite funny that branding piece. Um I mean actually because that's a story I always tell when I talk about you to anyone else and I I always tell that story because I'm like um it is such a good branding piece but then I always Yeah. I didn't even realize that I'm always tying you to Branson when I do that. That's actually quite funny. >> That's quite a It's quite a level to be tied to. >> Yeah, exactly. And so then you talked about the book with uh Penguin House because that's the the next thing because obviously the LA one time I um

heard you speak you did speak about the book and like you used well we used the same um company, right? Like >> to help you pull that all together. >> Absolutely. >> Um >> how much like why a book? Why that process? Why and why did that work for you? >> So I'm sitting in a conference in Sydney, actual Google kind of event thing and my mind tends to wander the whole ADHD thing, right? And >> um I was thinking everybody does like ebooks and things like that. Why don't I try and write a real book? >> Yeah. >> So we pitched the idea to Penguin Random House thinking there's nowhere in the world they say yes. And they said yes. And then I had

to commit to writing a book. And >> they gave us six months or 18 months. And so I said we're doing it in six cuz you know who knows 18 months might as well do it. Then I had to work out how to write it and do it and so I had help >> um to do that. Um >> but yeah like always do things to be different. I was in I was teaching this morning and talked about the purple cow Jim Collins and you know Zigg when everyone's else is zagging do things differently. Yeah. >> And other examples I was interviewed for the MBR and I I do kickboxing and I managed to get a black eye the day before the interview and they

said to me like should we postpone it? I mean that let's let's do the interview the photograph and the video with the black eye because it's memorable. I might look like a bit of an idiot but who cares, you know? People remember that stuff. >> Yeah, that's interesting cuz like you're, you know, quite self-described as quite introverted. >> And a lot of people will use that. I hear a lot of like business owners who will say the same thing, but they use it almost as a defense of why they can't do something. You're going, "Oh, I don't give a [ __ ] Like, I'll just lean into it. I'll look like a bit of fool, but you'll remember me." Where does that come from? Because that's not

normal. Not a lot of people have that braveness to do that sort of stuff. Was that always the case or did you like develop that over time? >> So, it's definitely improved over time. I had an interview with a lady called Jill South who was a reporter back in her day and she said, "You've got to get out on stage and talk to people." And like the thought terrified me >> but I do believe face the fear and do it anyway. What's the worst that can happen? >> Yeah. >> And like the first talk I did, I couldn't sleep for weeks beforehand, you know, but when you do it, it's not so bad. >> Yeah. like and it becomes easier and easier the more you

do things and your comfort zone expands and so um if you're not pushing your comfort zone you know how are you going to like change stuff and make make a difference. So >> yeah so that's like when you first like so the talking was like maybe one of the first things that sort of push you out of your comfort zone. Um, what like from that experience, how do you for people who are like taking it on for their first time, like how do you commit to just doing that? Like when how did you go I'm going to be petrified to go, "Yeah, [ __ ] it. I'll do it." Because that that seems like a I get the postrationalization like I get after you've done it. I

get that. >> Yeah. >> But like how did you make that first jump? Like how did you actually commit to doing it? Like surely was it >> surely it's not an easy thing to do? >> No, it's not easy. But if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Um, you know, there there's been like in the early days I didn't know anybody in New Zealand literally and I'll go to events where I didn't know anyone and being introverted stand in the corner and then my first strategy and this probably isn't very politically correct was um first strategy was find other people who are alone. So I go up to them speak to them like bring them into conversations. >> Yeah. >> Then I realized

right because I was married like it's just as easy to speak to most attractive girl in the room as it is to anyone. And so I' I'd pick the most attractive girl in the room and I'd chat to them and I'd bring other people into the conversation and then people always remembered me and it became easier and easier and so >> it was uh it worked. >> Yeah. So you're like leaning on that someone else who hears a reason for people wanting to talk to them. >> Yeah. Well, everyone's going to remember the dude who brought them into the conversation with the most attractive lady in the room, right? And I was married. It was Yeah. It's just as hard to speak to a lady

as it was to anyone. So, might as well, you know, be a little bit strategic about it. >> Oh, that's too funny. I love that. I'm going to try use that trick. I don't know. My wife's watching, but that's such a good trick. It's kind of like the idea of um you know, actually this podcast like when we put it's the same concept of me doing these interviews with like successful people or people with big brands and stuff. I'm sort of leveraging them. Yeah. >> To help me kind of, isn't it? Not too different, is it? Um Okay. So, you use these sorts of things. The the other thing I loved about your brand is I can't remember I don't think it was you. I

think it was one of your team and I asked them once like how do you find the best uh SEO agency thing and one of them said just Google it. >> That's obviously a thing and then your names would come up. >> But that's like not a normal thing. >> Yeah. like like I didn't realize when I started this business that marketing agencies are actually pretty [ __ ] at marketing themselves >> and that so when we built like one of the largest followings for a marketing agency as an organic content agency it was like abnormal and you guys as an SEO agency are actually just dominate on SEO as well. >> Was that a conscious thing to make sure like did you consciously went out and

did that because you must have because it's not an easy thing to just build SEO. >> So from day one when I started my goal was to be number one for the term SEO and I think it took me 18 months. Yeah. Um, but that was one of the things that because like I don't think you can really say you're the best at something without actually showing it. And >> yeah, now we can go like type SEO in Google. Oh, by the way, we wrote the book for Penguin Random House. Like why would you go with anyone else? You know, it's kind of a >> um And why would you you know? >> Yeah. That's so interesting though because like you know as well as

like that's not normal. >> No, I'm not normal. >> No, I know. Exactly. and did that because you're the you're the client when in that case where you're building your SEO. Um it's a cost and that's what what I've heard from a lot of other marketing agencies is that they're just like they can't afford the cost of doing it like doing the thing because they're not no one's paying they're not paying themselves to do it. Was that a like how did you overcome that? Do you just look at it as an investment? You just did it or >> Yeah. I say you can't afford not to do the cost of not doing it cuz how can you >> purport to be like the best at

something if you can't even do it for yourself. >> So for me there was no way in the world I wasn't doing it like Yeah. It was just you we had to do it. >> Yeah. >> Simple. >> Yeah. Interesting. I I mean I agree like obviously I mean you've seen like you can't get a [ __ ] away from us on content but I always find that such an interesting we were talking about it earlier today just like >> um I've been saying to a lot of people recently like I just didn't realize when I started this business that you didn't that marketing agencies didn't do that. They just all built it off reputation that they knew some people. >> A lot of them are crap

though. >> Yeah. Exactly. So >> they just say they can do it. >> Yeah. Interesting. It's like one of like it's like um kind of like playing golf. Like anyone can kind of go out and hit a ball. >> Yeah. >> But it's a very different thing if you're actually good at golf. >> Yeah. >> And I always think that my dad used to say that like I know everything there is to play about golf but I can't hit a [ __ ] ball. >> Yeah. >> You know like and it's kind of I kind of think of that sometimes like >> you either are a pro golfer or um in marketing or you just say you can you know you can pick up a club. >>

Yeah. Well, how do you get how do you get exceptional anything? You've actually got to do that thing day in day out and >> you know I don't want to do something if we're not exceptional. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Tell me a little I want to go dig into the business a little bit because Yeah. As you said, there's been big peaks and troughs since the business as all of us business owners know. It's not a linear. It's not a linear ride, but >> had a hair. Yeah. I love that you um you talk about like well I know when I knew you when I first met you which wasn't that long ago you're already kind of out of most of the day-to-day operations

at that point. Tell me about that point like leading building this business and then like stepping away from the sort of top day-to-day running like what was that transition like because that's not that's like for a lot of business owners they kind of see it as the dream. Yeah. >> Being able to step away from the the day-to-day grind of it. >> How did that come about in your business journey? And when did it happen actually because I don't really know. >> So if it happened a long time ago over a dec probably a decade ago um I employed a sort of general manager. um because I have a certain skill set and I'm not a systems processes detail person and >> you know one

of the things um that you have to understand in a business you get to certain stages and you need different people um and often the entrepreneur has to um step back because they're a little bit like >> um let's do that, let's do that, let's do that >> shiny things. >> And so um I stepped away. Funny enough, I've actually stepped back um recently for the first time in a long time. Um and I'm really enjoying it. >> Um but that was more because um I needed to um the company needed me. >> Um but yeah, it was a brilliant move um because it allowed the business to flourish and allowed me to do what I'm good at, which is meeting people and talking about

the brand and things like that. >> Yeah. And that's interesting because that's what I thought you did actually is just you became almost like the brand ambassador >> for pureio as opposed to the guy running it dayto-day. Yeah. >> What was that like like what did it >> like what does a typical day look like in that like because I when I saw you you always like either speaking at event or I saw you networking event. >> Yeah. >> Um >> what what did you do to build that be that brand ambassador? What did a day look like? >> So there is no typical day. >> Yeah. Um, I have a tendency to try and say yes, right? And, um, I also have a tendency

to try and help other people like because it's it's kind of in my nature. And >> um, the more you speak to people, the more you get out there, the more stuff just happens organically. Um, >> I also sold part of the business in 2014 to a guy called Tony Falenstein and Ian Malcolm. and like they've been massively helpful and massively um influential in the journey. It wouldn't be the business it is today without them and their experience. >> Got it. >> Um that made a big difference. >> What do you mean when you sold a part of the business? What was that? Like tell me that story because what what do you mean you sell a part of the business like a pure business?

>> So I sold 25% to Tony and 10% to Ian. Um >> and that was like one of those big moments because I just like year before I think had to pay low equity premium to buy a house. Got it. And a year later, I paid off the entire house. Um, you know, by selling part of the business. And the way I look at it is I sold part of the business >> to someone who's going to help me make a better business. So, it's like a win-win. Um, >> how did that come about? That's a cool like even for me, I'm just interested in like obviously at this stage of our business, but I know lots of business owners I talk to. >> Um,

it's a thing they always think about, especially in today's modern world of startup culture where everyone's like exiting and whatnot, like it's a big buzzword thing. selling a business or selling especially a business that you've built and been in part of and that idea of like you know they say would you want to own 100% of a $1 million business or 10% of a hund00 million business kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> How did that idea come about for you? Did you know you wanted to sell it? Did the opportunity arise? Like how did that come about? And then what was that process like getting to a sale? >> So it was a it was a very sort of serendipitous kind of thing. I like

had these guys gave me free office space at the beginning and they outgrew their space and they found a new space and I negotiated on their behalf because I was better negotiator and it just happened that the landlord was Tony and so I met with Tony and I asked him if he wouldn't mind catching up for a coffee. >> Yeah. >> Um and he did and ultimately um they asked at some point in the future if I would be interested in selling and I said yeah I'll sell part of the business and they came with an offer. I came with a counter offer and they said yes and a week later I had the um check in my hand. >> Yeah. >> Um but the

one one thing I think about is they said yes to my counter offer so I didn't go high enough. It's like damn >> oh I could have got more out of it. >> Yeah. But to be fair they've more than like impacted like Yeah. >> What is that relationship? So they're still part owners now. Yeah. And what does that relationship like where they play more of like an advisory role? Like how does that relationship work with it? They're on my board, but I speak to them most days. Like there's any anytime there's any I believe in radical transparency and anytime there's any issues or anything, I'm immediately like on the phone to them or letting them know. >> Um and I I speak to them

all the time, get their advice and get their help because you know Tony's um got the order of merit. He's built a public company and like he's a big philanthropist. Awesome. and Ian's very detailed and very honest and very ethical and >> they just fit with my values and um so it's been brilliant. Um but I hear lots of stories about not being brilliant, you know, nonline values and >> Yeah. because it is like a marriage in some respects. >> It is. Yeah. I've heard heaps of horror stories about people selling stuff out and it's just never worked out >> for them. And so like I mean what's it been now? 10 years is it? No. How long's it? >> Yeah. 2014. So 11 years.

Yeah. So that's like >> most people's marriages don't last that long kind of thing. So it's actually must been something that's quite stable. Um >> how did you know at that point that they were going to be right people? Did you just take a chance on it? Was the money was the money kind of talking at the time? >> No, it was more that um I'd heard of Tony and I knew nothing about anything. I was you know you kind of learn as you go and then to have someone >> who's been there and done that >> on your um in your business like what an opportunity. >> Yeah. Um, I've never actually really been driven by the money side of things. The money side

is more like a proof of success and like Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, I've been driven like the whole ethos of the business is do the right thing and everyone in the business knows that. And I think if you do the right thing and you go hard and you provide a good service, the rest comes. >> Yeah. >> Um, like we could have been much more profitable, made much more money over the years, but um, yeah, we've done all right. And I don't want to be one of those people that, you know, like grows this enormous business at the expense of everything else. That's just not me. >> No. No. It's um I think when you talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, they all kind

of feel a lot of the same way. Like most entrepreneurs aren't doing it for just lining their pockets. Like it's a different There are business owners who do it, but I think there's a thing about entrepreneurs who are different. Like true entrepreneurs, like I've never met many entrepreneurs who have ever said it's for the money. >> Nice. Like because it's not like it comes and goes so fast anyway. >> It's hard, right? >> You know, it really is those first two years like you know I earn bugger. I think I generated $60,000 in my first year of you know my wife who was a social worker at the time earned more than me. >> Yeah, >> it's a tough it's a tough journey. And I

talk about I I wrote a post recently just as a laugh because I saw a Tik Tok about it, but the difference between being 9 to5 broke and being entrepreneur broke and how like there's so much money coming in and out of our account all the time and how like at one stage you can like have in overdraft you're down negative 10 grand but then in two days you got to pay quarter of a million dollars in wages and somehow it just like appears. But when you're like 9 to5 broke how >> I just wait till next week before I buy this. like I definitely have money, but like an entrepreneur, it's just that >> constant cash flow craziness. >> Tell me about that for

you. Like >> because you you've you had a you've got a pretty good had a pretty good business model all along well since I've known you. >> How did that play out for you? Was it did you still have those peaks and troughs of cash flow like hiring people? I know that you've had some stuff recently, but like >> that's 16 years of that stress. Is that how it's been or you kind of figured out a model real quickly that kept you afloat? >> So there's two sides. one I have had to dip into my mortgage to pay uh wages in the early days because of late payment of potential of clients but >> um the model is the same as it started and it

was recurring revenue right and >> recurring revenue gives you shortity of income my first two employees I couldn't afford at all um but they allow me to go out and bring in business so that I could afford them >> and it's been a very similar model since day one as long as you're you know slightly more clients than you're churning business is growing. Yeah. >> Um, so their recurring revenue um was a really good strategy and it's still the strategy and I've invested in quite a few businesses over the years and invariably the ones that >> are like the chunky income, >> they're dead in December and January because no one's doing anything. Whereas if you have recurring revenue, you know, you still get to

pay everyone. >> Um, you know, so it removes a little bit of that stress like SAS businesses nowadays, they're all recurring revenue >> everyone. E no one-time purchases. >> Yeah. is that like for 16 years ago um that's even today what am I trying to say even today I see a lot of service based businesses who are all project based they still haven't quite caught on to this recurring revenue was 16 years ago was it like did people accept it quite easily back then like people understood it back then like how was it quite selling that or people just understood yeah I'm working with you long term >> so there was two sides when I started there was some dodgy agencies like taking shortcuts who

would get really good results really quickly. To do SEO properly takes time. >> Yeah. >> And so it was hard because you got all these agencies saying we'll do it like really quickly and and so on and and those first two years until Google did an algorithm update when all the dodgy people lost all their rankings and then people realized but it took time and ultimately people signed 12 month contracts. if they wanted to get out, I let them out. Yeah. It's more the psychology behind it that, you know, they're committing to this because this isn't an overnight thing. >> Um, but it did turn out to be a good business model. >> Yeah. You took there as well like signing more clients than you

tune. And like >> for me that's a thing in our business too. Like you're obviously tuning through clients like you say like you might put in minimum terms for people if they're going to pull out small businesses too. We know what it's like. Like I'm not going to be a dick here. >> But like how how do you think about that? Like because especially one one question I got asked the other day is how do you handle I was talking to a product based business someone who sells products. >> They're like I could never do service because I could never handle that email or that like conversation with a client who's like hey I'm canceling your 4K a month >> contracting. >> How was that

for you when you started to see that ch like how how's that >> I guess armor been built for you to handle that churn cycle because like for me it's still a tough thing. I'm a lot better than it than I am with the team. the team but the team like really struggled from that like is that something that you have ever played out for you? >> So in the early days I really struggled with it because I put my heart and soul into everything but I learned over the years to look at it in a different way and what I do is I say like >> you know these clients were with us for 12 months they paid us this amount if they'd have

said at the beginning we'll be with you for 12 months and we'll give you this I'd bitten their hand off and so I kind of reframe it in my mind that you know people are going to do what they need to do for their business and it's not a personal thing. Y >> but if I took it back and they said that's all they were going to do, I'd have taken it. And so it's just reframing it really good. >> But it it was emotional in the early days because um you do put your heart and soul into you do really want your clients to win. >> Um and so when they >> when they then um churn, >> it does feel personal, but feelings

are not facts, are they? and and you have to remove yourself from those feelings and just think >> um a little bit differently and and think they've got to do what they've got to do and it's not a personal thing. Um and as long as you feel like you've done the best you can, what more can you do? >> Yeah, I like that reframing. That's really good. I like and something for to share with our team because our team is the same like they get super passionate about what they do. They they fully invested in on it and >> you have clients who probably don't really see it or know and realize they kind of think, "Oh yeah, I'm just a service provider." But like

seriously like the guys will cry like >> yeah it means >> it means so much. They're so proud of their work and then when they have like clients who tune they they obviously look internally like [ __ ] was it me? What did I do wrong? And I have them in my office going damn like I'm so disappointed like I'm like >> did you purposely do something wrong? Like did you not do your best? I know I [ __ ] bust my ass for this >> and then but they still have left. And I was like but what? And they're like well they can't afford it or this or change your priorities or whatever. I was like so how is that >> your fault? But what I did like

what I liked about what you said there cuz some of them are especially the account managers are very >> transactional in the way that they think about it all and they're like you know we've now lost 10k a month or whatever it might be >> but I really like what you said. I've never thought about that. It's like okay how much have they spent with us? If they came at the beginning said we're going to spend 100k with you. What would we say? [ __ ] give it to me right now. I'll take every dollar you know and they still did that. Yeah. >> I actually really like that. That's a reframing I've never actually >> Yeah. And it's it helped me like because I'm quite an

emotional heart and sleeve dude. So, um, it helped me just kind of understand that and rationalize it in my own head and, um, so now it doesn't anywhere near have the same impact. >> Yeah, that's interesting cuz like now you're back at the helm. You're sort of steadying the ship again and so you know people don't come back because the place is going well. So obviously like you know it's one of those times for you that things are like I'm I'm coming back to steady the ship. Like >> how is that coming back in with all that sort of mindset? You got a team that you probably haven't been y >> in the trenches with for a while. How's that playing out now? because that's

been since what only a few months now. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, six weeks or something. >> Oh, six weeks. Not even a few months. Yeah. Six weeks. >> Might not even be that. >> Ultimately, we've had to change our whole business because AI is changing everything. And I spent a lot of money understanding the way things are going and researching and evolving the business. And >> um we need to go through that evolution and and our target markets changed a little bit because when I started the business, you get someone to top of Google, the phones won't stop ringing. Yeah, >> nowadays audiences are much more fragmented and so um unless we want to become a Kodak or a blockbuster video, we had to change

and so now totally change the business, but it's up to me to make sure that happens and that we roll it out and the messaging is correct and so >> I feel like I have the legacy thinking and the understanding to be able to roll that out. >> Can you tell us a bit about that change of thinking because like I see it too like I see SEO is not just Google anymore. every social network needs it. It's everywhere. There's different SEO, but then AI like that's such an interesting topic cuz we're getting clients now like we don't even do anything in search, but they're going like how do we make sure this content shows up when people search on chat and I'm like >>

I don't [ __ ] know. I make Tik Tok that goes viral, you know? I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm trying to figure it out because like it's a relevant question. Um tell me how from pureio who was the number one at putting at the top of Google to now like what does that change look like? Where are you seeing the future of that? >> Yeah. So we're the number one at putting at the top of um you know generative engine optimization as well AI and but I've spent a lot of money and time understanding that >> because that's where we need to evolve as a business. Hence we we're actually rebranding to the optimizers which is a story in itself cuz um we were >>

we won the David Awards 2013 and we were on the front page of the cover of NZ Business magazine as the optimizers and I bought Enz Business magazine two years ago and so it's like coming full circle the the story but you know now we're platform agnostic and we optimize company's presence for wherever they choose to be online. Yeah. >> And you have to evolve as a business. So the practices are similar but the tools change and the thinking changes but I built systems and processes for the old way and so we've had to rebuild everything from scratch. >> Uh which has been painful. >> Yeah. >> And not easy. >> Yeah. Cuz I remember that I remember you stole this conversation that you had

a talk where you had fully optimized your systems to be like almost rinse and repeat every time and you just scaled it by adding another block of >> team members and stuff. So that's all had to restructure and change. >> Totally. Yeah. Totally. Um, and if because if we stayed like that, um, we wouldn't be a viable business going forward. And I was always rather lead than follow. I think >> if you're following, you're behind, you know, like I'd rather forge the ground ourselves and >> um, and it's fun. It's like it's reinvigorated me because it's it's a challenge again and we have an opportunity to really dominate this space and so why not? It's fun. >> Can you tell me like and look, give

as much info as you want to give and you feel comfortable. I know you're a pretty transparent guy so I'm sure you will but >> like tell me let's say take us as an example because it's probably the easiest for this conversation. >> If I was instead of you know what I used to know Google get me to top of ranking. >> Yeah. >> What what are things that a business like a service based business like mine should be thinking about when it comes to search or generative AI of how do we get to number one like >> play that scenario. Pretend you're like pitching to me and tell me what I need to do. What are some stuff I need to think about doing

or or be a part of or how your team would help? So from a from a technical perspective, which I'll just brush over to a large extent, um there's things like schema markup and there's making sure the content's sort of made in the right way, >> but from a more general anyone can do perspective, >> it used to be backlinks or like a vote for a website. Now it's more around citations. So if someone just mentions your brand in top tier media, making sure Reddit is is part of your strategy because a lot of the models learning from Reddit and Wikipedia and things like that. And so it's like a online popularity contest a game but in a slightly different way. But the the difference

between >> Google and AI things is Google is deterministic. You put in something and you get the result the same result. Right. So it's very predictable. Yeah. >> Whereas with GE or generative engine optimization it's probabilistic. So you put in a term and you'll get a different result each time. So it's it's not quite as simple as that. Um, and the a lot of these tools that purport to give you the ranking and stuff like how can they really give you the ranking if it's probabilistic and what people put into the things are so different to what >> um, you know, their conversations. No one's going to just put SEO agency in, I think. And so it's an evolving field. It's changing all the time.

It's the wild west at the moment. Um, but a lot of it is down to good marketing, creating the brand, creating a personal brand as well is important and making sure you identify where your customers choose to exist online and you're engaging with them in that native environment. So, it might be that Reddit, it might be Tik Tok, it might be wherever. >> Um, it's no longer just Google. That being said, most searches start with Google. Yeah. >> But there's been a big rise in zero click searches. So, >> impressions are going up. >> Yeah. clicks are staying steady or going down and um that's just the way of the world and so you have to adapt your strategy and attribution. So >> um tracking

things is much harder. >> Yeah. Interesting. Why why is that? Why is >> Well, because if you're zero click, they might see you, but how do you track that process is much more difficult? >> If they click on a link from GPT, it will tell you analytics, but if they don't click, they just read and then they see you somewhere else. And we all know it takes multiple touch points for a brand to be contacted. And so we've gone back a decade in attribution >> that um the generative optimization that you talked about GEO is that you call it GEO. um that there when if I'm what are we seeing from consumers or people in how they're using those platforms to find a company or

find brands like cuz I don't know if I've used it that way and everyone uses stuff their own way >> but there's obviously people doing it otherwise you wouldn't be looking at this so what are some of those ways for brands who are listening like how how are consumers behaving there like what are they asking these things >> so the commercial intent query generally do still stay with Google if they're looking to buy something. That being said, we've signed a number of clients who found us through chat GPT, etc. And you find those are actually generally the more sophisticated um clients, more tech companies and things like that. >> But it it we're going to go through an evolution. Chat GPT have done a deal

with spot with Shopify where, you know, you're going to be able to buy products from within GPT. So, we're going to get to a stage where you have a a large language model, whatever it is, and and things will probably be rendered within that, and you'll stay in one platform, but we're a way off that. Um, and then you have a Gentic AI, which will buy stuff for you, book holidays, and so we're going to be optimizing for bots again. And um, so it's a constantly evolving thing, which is why I built the change in the company >> um, to be able to evolve as things evolve. Um, so it can't be as rigid as the old sort of company was because we're in the

wild west. We're in that place and these large language models, they're focused on customer acquisition at the moment. That's what they care about. And Google customer retention and revenue retention because it's all about shareholder value. >> Yeah. >> And so we have to think about how do we do this in a safe way that's not going to get our client a penalty or get our client off. >> But a lot of it is makes sense. is just logical and it's um talking to what customers want. >> Yeah. So you're saying almost like actually the best way to manipulate or to own these generative like models is just do good brand marketing anyway >> and answer what people are looking for. You know, help them find

the things that they want and don't be so worried about making them come to your website because that's a false economy. and talk to them in the platforms they want to be spoken to because >> you know you can either fight it. >> Yeah. >> Or you can embrace it and if you embrace it you're going to win. >> Yeah. That's interesting. What what role does websites like does it play for a lot of business? Okay. Maybe e-commerce is a little bit different but like outside of e-commerce what role do websites play in this future where you're not really trying to drive them to their trying to meet them where they are. >> Yeah. >> What does that website do? So I've said on a

few other podcasts I reckon websites will go and we'll have like um APIs sending information but at at the moment >> like with marketing you're trying to build trust and there are storytelling. So it's a mixture of trust and storytelling. So websites build trust and they show >> authority and authenticity. >> And so for me a website should have um your essence. It should show who you are as a brand, your your people, your what's special about you >> because so many people are just using AI content and that's a race to the bottom as far as I'm concerned. Like >> where's the personality? Where's the authenticity? And that's what's going to win out. >> Do you think that like from you know if SEO

is changing >> into this world of where you show up everywhere and these models are pulling it all in? Does the SEO heavy website like is that if you're starting now is that still a good investment or is it is there a different way you play into that? >> So a lot of those SEO practices are actually good for GEO. Okay. >> Um but if I was starting a website now I'd have a slightly different strategy depending on the type of website. >> Yeah. >> Um >> because I would put generative engine optimization and answers and AI overviews at the forefront of the strategy. >> Yeah. Um, and think about that from day one. You know, like they say like mobile first world and stuff.

Now I do an AI first world. >> Got it. Interesting. We um tell me how if this is a dumb idea. So our company's like >> obviously our website's really our social channels >> and we have this website and they got built and it's kind of like Sunday afternoon I got to do this thing and make it because I needed to do it. >> But as a team it's like just a it's annoying because like one um I can't spell anyway. So there's spelling mistakes all through it. There's [ __ ] everywhere. when we update stuff, we never update it, right? Because we're never thinking about it. So, it just becomes this like cumbersome thing we have to manage and an exp if we were to give

it to someone else to manage. It would just be another expense or whatever. >> Like I mean, you know, Nate and our team. So, me and him together, what should you do? >> Dangerous. >> And I know it was very dangerous because it end up coming up as should just be a picture of me pulling the finger going why the [ __ ] are you here? Go to our socials. Now, that might be a bit extreme, but like that in general of like just going we this website's just to own the domain, push people down, go to where we are, go where where you are, go see us there. >> Yeah. >> How dumb is that as a move? >> I was trying to tell a story

is what I was trying to do. Sorry. >> What what I would do is you're producing all this content already, right? >> That should be used crossplatform. So you you've already doing the hard bit which is creating the content and so think about way to utilize the same content on the website can you automate that population you know >> got it >> and using it on social channels using in your PR using it in your social media because then >> if you put a strategy together then you're having a consistent message across the different platforms and >> um I think that's probably the better way to do it because people will still come to especially enterprise businesses. >> Yeah. And so it is also your

shopfront. Yeah. So I would do a strategy and there is autom automation. Yeah. Like it might take a little bit building at the beginning but then you become a machine and >> yeah it it you're already doing the whole bit which is content creation. >> That's real interesting especially for like creators watching because creators are trying to build these businesses in the back end and they some of them will have a website but it ends up just being like here's my rate card or here's my thing. But I like what you're saying there is they're these content creators, they're already creating all the content which most businesses can't do. So they're already a step ahead. Yeah. They just got to find a way to showcase

it on the website. >> Yeah. To leverage that. But plus also your website is owned property whereas the social media is not owned property. And if something changes with the social media then you have no power over that whereas you do on your own property and I think that's also quite valuable. >> Yeah, that's real interesting. What what else are you seeing in that AI space? cuz I think like I know cuz I've been watching you and to heard your story like you're definitely by far out in front when it comes to knowing what a is doing AI is doing in a marketing perspective especially if not worldwide New Zealand definitely >> what else are you seeing in that space that people aren't even seeing

yet or do you think it's going to go like as a prediction even even if >> yeah so um Google launched um on Thursday AI mode in New Zealand so AI mode is um is more like GPT you can have a conversation it will remember stuff and then um then give you stuff and they're looking at a gentic AI where where you will be able to buy stuff within that um >> and so that is where we're going like you could be saying to it look I'm going to roads on holiday in five weeks find me the best flight give me an itinerary my kids are this age and so on and so forth and over time it'll remember all that stuff and it will

start to predict what you want when you want and so it'll be like a personal assistant as opposed to just a question and answer engine. And so we're going to become reliant on these things and then when you mix that with physical robots and stuff like it's a whole world of change. Um >> that's so interesting. >> Yeah. I think employees will manage teams of AI agents, you know, like team of AI developers. >> Yeah. you know, and so the roles that we have will change um and we'll leverage this technology because democratizes intelligence, >> but it can't do the experience and they're like the magic which comes from a human. >> What is that? Because I I I say the same thing like people

were going aren't you worried about your business just being taken over and I was like >> there's certain elements of course and to be honest like we're trying to embrace them now to do that because we [ __ ] hate doing that part of it. when you say that for like a general business because they start to hear these things they're like well what the [ __ ] the point like >> what are we going to do >> but you said this bit about the magic like where where do you see that being like where do you see humans like the jobs for humans in the future cuz like a lot of people have this doom and gloom but I'm I'm guessing like you we know that humans will

just adapt and we'll find different things and do where do you see that shifting what is that magic >> so it's a tool firstly like like anything else right but the magic is in the experience like >> you know the story about Nekron and the you know the um AI agent's never going to have that or like >> you know the real personality like who works for you like I see the stuff you're doing with your employees you know AI is never going to have that I kind of see AI like a covers band like it's really good but it's not quite there >> and to put the heart and the soul into it is the real people stuff and I think that's what's going

to win out because everyone's going to do like churn out AI stuff so how do you differentiate You put your heart and your soul and you put your personality out there and how can that be replicated? >> Yeah, I like that. We we something that we've been seeing as a team is the one thing AI will never ever be able to do is replace in-person contact, right? Like if you have people in person like it's a digital thing, it's never going to be able to do that. I mean, robots might, that's a different thing. We'll go down that lane another day, but um we're actually next week launching a new like subbrand under us, which is um well, it'll be out by the stage. It's

called For the Seekers, which is essentially just like all our events. Yeah. >> And it's like tears of it. And it's just like I said to the guys a few months ago. I no longer want to chase followers. I want to the measure of our success is how many people we can put in a room. >> Yeah. >> Like if we can do that, we win. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of like basing off like the Disney model, right? Where they make most their profit from their theme parks, not the movies. >> Yeah. >> And for me, it's like what you're saying is the experience. It's the experience of it. >> Absolutely. How do you think like brands like in your mind like for

clients yourself that you've got like how do brands um embrace that thing? Because like think about it like how does uh I don't know anchor >> Yeah. >> embrace this experience piece when they're just going to be like, well, if you don't rank high enough, no one's going to buy your protein shake because the agentic robot's going to buy whatever else it is. >> But they could differentiate themselves with experience. Yeah. Obviously, or something like that. >> Just like spitball like what do they do? And they're people like who works in the warehouse, feature their people, the characters, the people behind Anchor. And >> people like people, they resonate with people. And so if you're showing the true people behind it and >> and the

customers and the experiences, you know, if someone sees themselves in that, they're going to resonate with it. And so what sets you apart? What's different about you? And generally is the people. >> Yeah. and the experiences that you have like your Christmas party or you know or or that little dude in the corner who's always fiddling with the same thing or what's sort of unique about your business and like I came in here today and you know people come straight up they offer me a coffee and you know the personalities all got a smile on their face and the bright eyes and you know that's warm when you come in like you want that to put that warmth across online as well because that's a

differentiator. So you're saying that if the brand does that they build this brand equity that people get and feel they feel rapport with it >> that my agentic models are no longer just doing things they're going I'm saying to them hey can you get me some anchor protein plus as opposed to can you get me some red drink protein drinks or something. Is that kind of what it is like your brand sticking with people so they're asking these machines. >> Yeah. And also the if if lots of people talk about the brand online and get excited about it that's the one they'll pull up. >> Got it. Got it. That okay that's the click. Yeah. That's a penny drop for me >> because the noise

is happening. So the engine's going >> Yeah. Well, that's what people want to see. That's all they care about is serving relevant things to people because then people come back. >> Got it. >> And so the more buzz, the more brand you create, the more you're talked about in the media, >> the more they're going to perceive you as the brand they want to pull up. >> Got it. That makes so much sense. Okay, that really clicked for me because like you know I I don't know your world like you do obviously at all to be honest in SEO but like I you just hear about people like I do what I need to do to get to rankings but you have said to me

before that it's not really like that it's actually just like the more the if everyone is organically talking about you because you're actually good yeah >> then you will naturally rise because relevancy what you're saying here is that if people are if your brand is so relevant and resonating with everyone globally in your target audience that Agentic doesn't even you don't even need a telegenic. >> It just knows because it's like I know what you're looking for. Here's the best in the market because it has the most people talking about it naturally. >> Yeah. Cuz this dude's always doing a podcast and loads of people come and watch the podcast and share it and talk about it. They must be like a legitimate company who's

relevant. >> And so just by doing this, you're kind of um helping >> and speak at events the event. Yeah. and then people commenting or LinkedIn you do a post and loads of people engage or you've got a Wikipedia page or you know all these different things >> in isolation they're nothing but if you're everywhere like that's what people want. It's it's not massively complicated, but it's um you >> to do it properly, you've got to think about how you're going to do it because otherwise, like you say, you just do it on social in isolation >> and you only benefit in isolation, whereas all this stuff could be used to benefit all over the place. >> Yeah, I love it. And that like really

clicked for me actually, like that idea because I was always wondering like I I kind of knew that's kind of where the world was going, but I always wondered [ __ ] like how does that really tie in? How do you make it all come together? And obviously we're a social organic social agency, so creating the content's easy, but you're actually what I like there, you said it's super simple. What the way we talk about it being simple is like if you tell a good story, it'll go viral. That's all it is. There's no hex of going viral. Everyone's like three hooks to get that [ __ ] There is nothing. Just tell a [ __ ] good story. All good stories have a beginning, middle, and end. >> And all

you're saying is like tell that story in more places. It becomes one big story. >> Yeah. >> And there's consistency. So if someone goes to your website, they see the same brand, the same story, the same um enjoyable experience as they do on social, as they do at the event, as they do everywhere. And then >> you're building a a brand across all the areas and it fills the top of the funnel and the middle and bottle bottom. So >> you know, it's it makes sense, but and if you do it strategically, if you set like a process around doing it, doesn't become arduous, whereas if you do ad hoc Yeah. >> Then it's a lot of work. >> Yeah. Exactly. That's what we always

talk about, too. Like, you can't just ad hawk make pieces of content. It's too [ __ ] hard. You got to build a system. Yeah. >> Otherwise, it's so expensive to do. >> Yeah, man. This is like we're already almost an hour in. This has been awesome. Like, I'm just starting to get my mind blown a little bit and Amy's telling me to wrap it up. But, um, bro, it's always so good to hear your thoughts, honestly. Like, you're like, >> I think it's like >> often I'll have conversations with people and I'll I'll get into my world and then they always leave going, "Oh, man. Thanks so much. That blew my mind." And there's not many people that like do that for me. And every time

I hear you speak, I remember listening to you in talks and stuff. And you know, you're a pretty reserved conservative guy and you kind of you've got this way of talking on stage where you kind of >> um quietly confident and and I always leave going, "Fuck, this guy's way too smart." But and then just No, I know. But you like what I like about is you connect the dots. Super simple. And I think you've done that so good today. Like there's so many good clips in here. I think people are going to be like, "Fuck." Like I had a proper light bulb moment where I was like, "Ah, okay. I get it now." Like it makes sense. >> That's what it's all about though,

is it? Like if you can help one person, you know, move the needle, then it's worthwhile as far as I'm concerned. >> No, I love it. Hey, it's so good. I love following your journey, man. It's been so good. I've been so good to know you over these last years. And thanks for coming on the podcast. >> Thanks for having me. Yeah. Cheers. Oh, awesome, man. That was cool. That was cool. I like that.