From MasterChef to Social Media w/ Alice Taylor.

A lot of social media, at least what I was finding was I was leaving the app feeling worse. And so I wanted to make something that made people feel better. When I started filming those first videos a year ago, I mean, the quality was ropey. Like ropey. But I'm so glad that I posted when I posted before I felt like I was ready because it's kind of become the brand. Like I look okay now. I look more average when I film. But yeah, with ad steals, I'm careful. Like I I'm very much playing and I always have like a long game. Money is lovely and everything, but I'm very careful with the deals that I take and why I take them. >> Today's creator increased

her followers by 60 times in the space of about 4 months. She went from 6,000 followers to 360,000 followers, all by finding a little niche, a little human truth that worked for her audience and making affordable recipes. And honestly, what she's done is [ __ ] amazing. Anyway, this is a great episode. Tune in. Enjoy. >> All right. Well, let's get into it. So, welcome to the podcast. How are you? You good? >> I'm good. How are you? >> I am fantastic. I was saying um I was just having lunch before and people were like, "Oh, you got your podcast with like oh, do you know?" I was like, "I actually don't, but I've spoken to her for like a good hour at a Starbucks in West

Village, New York." >> And they were like, they're like, "Wait, that's so random. What do you mean she was there?" I was like, "No, like we had a video call." >> I know. while I was sitting in there and that would have been now um two years ago. >> Yeah, I know. Cuz um I had a book coming out and I had always struggled to grow my Instagram. >> Yeah. >> Uh and I just felt very very lost as to what to do. And so I remember reaching out to you guys because I had been recommended it. Yeah. >> Um by a very good friend and we had a lovely conversation. And unfortunately, I didn't go through with it because also I had no money,

[laughter] >> so I couldn't >> but um I still learned a lot from that conversation and obviously now I do my own thing and I did figure it out eventually. I still am. But yeah, >> you did and I loved it. Um when I saw that this interview was coming up and I'd seen what you've been doing and whatnot, >> I remember thinking to myself like that's how good it is. like it shows you um that someone will succeed when it that was like I think between the call and when I saw it first going off it was like a year and a half or just a bit over a year and a half. >> That is such a long amount of time for a

a young person to like stick it saying to work. >> Oh yeah. And I mean I I've had I've had Alice Taylor Eats for six years. So a long long time and this time last year I would have had maybe 6,000 followers. So it took me yes five years to get to 6,000 and [laughter] then it took me like in a month I got 100k. So and I think also even from that conversation that we had I learned >> oh actually this is way more work than I thought it would be because I think a lot of people see influencers and they have their one big video and they're like oh that's awesome but it's like well actually all the work that leads up to

it and I realized from talking to you that it's a big job. You need to understand what you're doing. You need to be consistent every single day. never stop. >> And um yeah, that's what I really took from that conversation was work harder. [laughter] >> I know it's a bit of a um it's both good and [ __ ] advice at the same time. It's good cuz it's like that's the truth, but it's [ __ ] cuz it's like a [ __ ] I better get to work. Eh, >> yeah. Yeah. >> Um tell me, let's go back a bit though. So, as you said, Yeah. six years you've been here, there's been the master chef and everything. Why don't you give everyone like a little bit of like the elevator

pitch of where you've come, what you've done, and about four or five months ago started to pop off. So, take us up to that point. >> Okay. So, I'll start very briefly when I was a kid, but I'll >> please. No, go for it. Take as long as you need, but yeah, let's let's go through that. >> Yeah. So, basically, um, when I was a kid, from as early as I can remember, I've always been really obsessed with food and cookbooks. I only read cookbooks as a child, which I learned was very strange. >> Very strange. >> The first cook the first book I ever got was the Edmonds kids cookbook. Um, so I was always really into food and very studious kid. Um, and

so always kind of torn between, you know, this love of food and wanting to pursue a career that's a more conventional career, academia, you know, what looks good, I guess. Yeah. >> Um, and so basically, I loved cooking, went to university, got a master of politics, uh, specialized in Taiwanese foreign policy, very random, >> of course, >> still wrote about food. um wrote a cookbook manuscript when I was 15 and kept doing that >> and started Alice Taylor Eats as a sort of side hobby while while I was at university. Yeah. Um and loved it >> and it grew at that point to like a thousand followers which for the time when I was in Denedan I thought I was cool you know I thought

I made >> you're an influencer. >> Yeah I was an influencer in Denedan. Um and yeah so I I loved it and I came out of my degree my master of politics. Um, I actually got first place, but I had like no scholarship acceptance, no job offer, like completely lost. And I was actually like kind of upset because I was like I thought university was where I was meant to figure all of it out. >> Yeah. >> And my dad texted me that Master Chef was looking for applications. >> So, I thought, well, why not? I don't I literally honestly don't have anything else. It was a dream of mine, but it was just too crazy. Like, I spent 20 seconds on the video because

I thought this will never happen. Like >> and anyway, I got I got on. >> Yeah. Crazy. >> Um which was awesome. One of the best experiences of my life >> and um came third and out of that I got a job offer to work at Bootsy. Yeah. >> And so I thought well I've never really wanted to be a chef necessarily but I love food and I'm going to learn from the best. >> Yeah. >> And so for the next few years I worked as a chef but like really high levels. I was at Amisfield at one point as a pastry chef. >> Um and >> learned a lot. I met I fell in love. I met my partner and um but I ended

up basically just >> kind of physically and mentally just not well. >> Yeah. >> So I left >> because of the shifting. >> Yeah. It's a tough industry. >> Yeah. It's no joke. It's a tough industry. Like chewed me up and spat me out. >> It does it. Yeah. [laughter] Does it to the best of us. >> Oh, it's it's brutal. And so basically I ended up no job, no money, >> wanting to still post. >> And I thought, well, this is the only option is to post really cheap and realistic food and I'd love to see something like that. >> Yeah. And so then I did that and it's just taken off. >> Yeah. I love it. >> And that was um when did

that content series start? Because it started popping off a few months ago, but when did it was that when you started? It was from day dot. It just took off. >> So uh it started that style because I kind of had tried to dabble and and and really replicate people's >> people's sort of style on Instagram, which was that really polished look. That's what most influencers do, especially food influencers. >> Yeah. Um, and I tried to do that and had no, you know, no real luck, um, or growth or anything like that. And then around November of last year, I remember like it was like secret. I like did it when my my man was away at work and I was like, I'm not telling

anyone. I'm so ash like embarrassed about this video and um, I [laughter] filmed it. No, really. I I was like I was like, "No one will see. It doesn't matter." >> And then that video did like relatively well, you know, for having 6,000 followers, but it was just the comments. I understood I think I posted it maybe for >> reasons which was you know I wanted to grow a career in online and be my own boss and stuff but I realized very quickly it's >> my job now is has nothing to do with me and everything to do with giving people affordable accessible recipes so I realized it was a lot bigger than me >> and it kind of yeah felt like this really cool

thing and then ever since then I've posted like almost every single day that >> um now it's every second day just for engagement reasons, but it used to be every every single day and uh yeah, now now this is my full-time job. So, >> that's so good. I um it's a real interesting thing you spoke about, you know, probably a lot of other influencers and stuff and what they doing and making their nice polished videos and whatnot. >> We been talking about this a bit recently, Amy and J and our team about how like the different levels of understanding how a video goes viral. >> Yeah. And like there's a real like for a lot of people there's this real surface level version of why

something viral like maybe oh they copied a trend or it looks really pretty or they know there's a lot of like obvious reasons like you look at it you're like intuitively this is why >> and then you can then go the next level up. We kind of understand that no actually it went really well because they're like storytelling structure is real solid but like they've really told a good story here. They've not just used a trend but they've told it >> they've they've executed to perfection. Yeah. >> Told a really good story. Whereas a lot of people don't really know how to like set up the story, show the conflict, resolve it, right? >> Yeah. >> And then like there's this third piece which is

um sort of third higher level understanding what the human truth or insight behind the video is and what taps into the soul of people when they watch it. And like you've kind of just like done this full circle of figuring that out where like this cheap eats kind of idea or this like affordable food recipe, sorry, probably better way to put it is um there's like a fundamental thing in there, right? Like especially at the moment in like >> you know >> quote unquote like cost of living crisis and like just people trying to do things different ways and like you [clears throat] found a niche that's like more um >> human than just cooking. >> Oh yeah. >> You know. >> Exactly. Exactly. [clears

throat] And I think it's the the feeling that you bring people as well I think is really powerful on social media. I think a lot of social media at least what I was finding was I was leaving the app feeling worse. >> Mhm. >> And so I wanted to make >> something that made people feel better. Yeah. >> So even if you know for example um even like for example I I know this guy's a very successful economist in New Zealand and he said to me, "I never cook your recipes. I'm always traveling. Um but your your videos remind me of home. they make me feel good. And so even if it's I think it's a feeling and I also think as well with with

Instagram, which is what I wasn't doing when we had that first conversation, is you need to give them something that's valuable%. >> And I think it's not about, you know, new influencing is not about you. It's not about the personality of you. That all matters, but it's what are what's the value that you're bringing to that person's life. So, you know, my thing is that I will give you a cheap and realistic recipe and it'll work >> and hopefully I'll make you feel good and empowered along the way. Um, and also I think as well, you know, I had a video that went very viral. I got a lot of followers off it and that was my introduction video and what I love about that

video is it was like I always say the longest for me to make because it was >> Yeah. >> 26 years. And so a story Yeah. You can tell a good story, but >> you have to also live the story. >> Yeah. >> And so some things Yeah. Even even a lot of people that are influencers, they have >> Yeah. Yeah, they have this profile, but they've done years of training or years of work or that stuff you can't rush. So, >> yeah, Instagram's a really interesting thing in that way that some things are really fast about it, but some things take a lot of time in the background. >> Absolutely. Especially when you want the profile to be somewhat like >> like your essential

character of it. Yeah. You know, like if if it was just recipes and you couldn't see the person or whatnot. Yeah. Maybe you don't need the 26 years story in it. Yeah. Yeah, >> but then it probably wouldn't also grow necessarily the same way that it's grown with you. But that thing you said there is quite interesting and and I'm sort of hopping on it because like people listening who haven't like had the success that you've had today, they don't always understand it that this feeling this value exchange that you >> Yeah. A lot of people will like look at value exchange um oh I'm going to teach you how to cook but actually that's like still part of the surface level piece because actually

we don't need a video to teach us how to cook affordably online that's we can just go straight to Google and find anything we want anytime we want >> and so there is that feeling piece and that's where that human truth come piece comes in of like >> I mean it's been I don't know three minutes since we start this conversation I probably need a bit longer to figure out exactly like how to articulate that human truth But um when you figure out what that is, that's the thing you repeat. >> Yeah. >> That that human truth has to repeat. So like in our content on the Instagram, our attention seekers Instagram and Tik Tok. Well, actually our entire brand >> um it just manifests

a particular way on our Instagram, Tik Tok is this uh human truth of hierarchy. Yeah. >> And of like David versus Goliath kind of thing. And the differences between people with power and people without it. That's a human truth we all understand. Yeah. >> And so like obviously it manifests on Instagram and Tik Tok on the company profile of me versus Joanie >> staff, whatever that dynamic, but even on like my LinkedIn or even on my Instagram, it's like um showcasing the experience of an owner and what he has to do to go through stuff and a lot of it's about our team and like my ups and downs and that sort of stuff. >> It's showing that dynamic of like >> here's someone with

power as someone who owns this business and staff and stuff, but actually like talking through the struggles of it. It shows that our So now when we create content, we repeat that human truth time. >> Yeah. >> So everyone understands us that is our business. >> I think that's the thing like people struggle with because they go, "Oh, that's a really cool video style." It's like the video style is not what made it go viral. >> Maybe it got a few little bit of extra things, >> but it was this other human truth in it >> that really made held on to. And now your whole profile, I guess, is pumped to that. All these people who love it are feeling. I know that they're

getting it is it really is the feeling because even when I started filming those first videos a year ago, I mean the quality was ropey like ropey. But I think it was also I think it was really like I'm so glad that I posted when I posted before I felt like I was ready because it's kind of become the brand of like >> realistic cheap I don't look that good. Like I like for example I'll film tonight. I'll probably have a shower. like I'll look okay now, but I'll make I'll I'll look more average when I film. And I think that I think it's part of the the brand. So, I'm so thrilled that I um did it when I did it. But yeah, you

you also just are informed by the people that watch you, what they like about it. And there's some things that really surprised me. Yeah. >> Um that people picked up on, but I think especially on Instagram, a lot of stuff is perfected and what I was posting was such a strong contrast to it. >> Got it. So, um, >> yeah, I think people really enjoyed that and held on to that and I've protected that as much as I can. Like maybe my phone, I bought a new phone. Yay, I got a light now. But, you know, the rest of it like stayed the same, the the core of the page and it will always stay the same no matter what. >> Yeah. And like that

that's the thing, right? Like cuz as long as you've got that core insight and story there, that's what they're coming for. Not coming. Like there is an example for every example of a Polish video doing well. there's a crappy one doing well or somewhere in between like they actually mean nothing. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of people like there's a lot of talk around lowfi contents taking off and whatever. It's not that it was taken off. We just now have a platform >> where people can put it out >> at mass that it just so happens some of them can do a good story. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. That's all it was. It was just before when it was on TV. You're never

going to get a lowfi thing on TV because the cost of getting it there >> so high. >> Oh yeah. But we've already proven on YouTube that like you know there's like Hank Green on almost films off a webcaming like you know >> I know but that's the thing that's the beauty of like social media with all of its flaws is you know even for me I wanted to write for this paper or have this opportunity or go on TV and you just feel like there's doors on your you know slamming you in your face >> and so social media creates that opportunity where you can actually build your own career. You don't have to like, you know, I say to Ari and my partner

like, I love that I don't have to convince somebody that my idea for a video or recipe is good anymore because I can post it and my followers will tell me if it's good or [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And so I I that's one of the things I love about um social media. It's such a powerful tool and I think anyone, you know, wanting to build their own business, whatever it's in um you know, should definitely look and explore social media as an option just because it also just gives you a bit more autonomy as well. So >> [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So tell me then, okay, so you it's now your full-time gig. That was like a pretty quick transition to that um

relative, right, from the outside at least, right? Like in the time from it going viral to, you know, a year ago at 6,000, now it's your full-time gig >> for most people in the influencer world. That's still quite a fast period of time. And but like how did that play out? Like what is it now? Like where is the money come from? How are you negotiate? Like tell me what that story looks like. >> Yeah. So, I mean, when I decided to leave my job, I've always wanted to work for myself. >> Um, always. And when I decided to leave for my leave my job, I had about 40,000 followers, which was like it's good, but it's, you know, I was still like I was

I was counting those, [laughter] my calculator out. Um, but I also was doing cont and I still do contract writing, commercial writing, which is what I also do. Yeah. >> So, I thought I'm going to make this work. This is the time. And you know, time was something that I really needed to to get back. >> Um, and in terms of, you know, when I quit my job, around the time that I quit my job, I had already resigned. I'd literally, it was my last day or my last week. >> I had a video takeoff and I swear it was my pop looking after me. So, thank you, [laughter] Pop. Um, and I had I had this big video takeoff and I thought, "This is

awesome." Like, >> tell me what takeoff means. >> Um, well, I mean, it's now at 4 million views. Amazing. But also your videos that have 4 million views, but the number of followers it converted was just enormous. >> Yeah. >> Uh which another that's another >> Was this your story video? Was this one? Yeah. >> And that's a whole another thing about you know being going viral is it's all fair and wild to go viral >> but you know you can go viral and get 100 followers off it. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Or no sales. You can look at it in that way. So uh yes I went viral and now in terms of my where the money comes from um it comes from mainly

ads that I run on my page. I'm [clears throat] very particular about the ads that I run >> and I'm I have a like cap on it that I love would love to make more money but I'm very careful about the companies I work with% >> uh and then also contract writing I still do a lot of that social media strategy >> that's where it's coming from for now I have plans for that to change in the future like is in selling my own product books etc but my my main thing is that I >> like owning what I do >> yeah um and you know having autonomy with that. So I choose what brands I want to work with and uh everything like that.

So that's where the money is coming from for now. >> And you getting quite a lot of inquiry from ads perspective like even not necessarily ones that you're accepting in space. >> Yes, I would say yes. >> But it's a specific type of company that reaches out to me because I don't sell a perfected or consumeristic lifestyle. Yeah. >> So like for example, one of my favorite companies I work with and actually I should say I managed to after I went viral, you know, keep the the ads deals that I have. I have longunn deals with companies. So I managed to get those again in a different way. Of course. >> Yeah. Food creators is such an interesting space because like >> um you know

FMCG products especially uh there's so much money. >> Yeah. >> So much and it's all marketing, right? That's the whole game is marketing. So like >> it's a real interesting space for people to monetize and like I was I had um Can Cook's show. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Dan Reckon and like he was talking to him about the same thing and he telling me >> um you know I probably I don't know it's on camera so I'll just won't say the numbers he told me but like the numbers he was telling me like are insane. >> Yeah. >> Especially for US deals. Yeah. Which is real interesting. >> Yeah. >> And so I was going to ask you like from your audience like where does

your audience sit? Did most of it come from or did you go quite global? >> Um I've gone global recently. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So like up until the point where I was, you know, 40,000 followers. Yeah. >> And 40,000 followers but very engaged followers. Like that was something I was really proud of and I'm still very proud of now. >> Um I had the majority was I guess New Zealand Australia. Yeah. >> Now that's changed slightly. Now I still have a lot like the biggest portion is New Zealand and Australia still. Okay. But I have people from a lot of people from South Africa. Um, UK, US, a lot of Italians, too. I imagine it's because we cook a lot of Italian food. My

man's Italian. >> Um, so yeah, it's it's become a lot more diverse. Now I'm running a series with Net Cooking, which is the is it cheaper in New Zealand versus Australia? We're bringing in other countries. >> Love it. >> So, we're kind of trying to make it a bit more of a global thing. >> Uh, and that's very much, you know, that's very clever. It >> It's very clever. I will credit Amu, his brother, and Nat for most of the ideation. They're fantastic. >> Awesome. >> Um, >> and yeah, so that's kind of what where where I'm at now with the international audience. I still love like I'm a Kiwi and I love to promote Kiwi products, but yeah, with ad deals, I'm careful like

I I'm very much playing and I always have like a long game, you know? I I money is lovely and everything and I I I'm doing well well for myself, but I'm very careful with >> the deals that I take and why I take them and if it's going to help >> the audience, if I think it's a product that is actually going to help them and that I love, then I'll I'll be open to it. But I'm very careful with it. >> It makes sense. It's good, too, because I think um like on this, what number is this? 98 episode 98 or something. >> 96. And of the 96 people I met, like I would say more than half of them don't think that

way to start with. >> Yeah. >> And to be fair, they're led astray a lot of the time, like because their agents don't make money unless they're making money and taking the deals >> and >> 100%. >> So they're turning them over quite fast. And that's not necessarily the agent's fault. They're not being malicious. They're just doing their they are. And that like that's what people have to realize. Like they're not sitting there going, "Sure, screw these people over. Just get it done." They're actually just going we got targets like it's a job. Like they actually job their work. >> They're just trying to do their job. >> But inevitably what happens is that people get burnt out. Their their audiences get burnt out. People

stoping them. I remember Joanie telling me when she was first working for us, she decided, you know, I'm going to take heaps of deals. And her agent was giving a whole bunch. And then her like engagement just fell off a cliff. Like she sits at like 25% engagement on average, which is crazy for someone with a million followers, right? and it dropped down to like sub 10%. For her was terrible. And like people would stop watching. So she just cut it all. She just said to her a you need to 4x my cost. Oh, I'm not doing it. Like I don't want anymore. Like I don't need it. I've got this great job. And then eventually she's getting back to doing lots of gigs. But

she's doing them far more like things she wants. >> Yeah. >> You know, as opposed to just taking whatever deal. >> Absolutely. And and I think, you know, it's a it's a balancing act. Um, and I love Joany's content and I I One thing I will say is I love her ads. Her ads are bloody amazing cuz they're also their ads and I love that, you know, they're obviously ads. Like >> the audience is smarter than you. >> And they know what's going on. And so even for me when I run an ad, I get messages like, "Yes, queen." Like you [laughter] give us so many free recipes pop up. And that's what I want it to be like. >> And so >> they want

to support you because like they know you're getting paid and that if you get paid, you get more content. >> Exactly. But it's also like I've given them so many free recipes. They're like they they say like, "Oh, you've made helped us save money. We're glad you're making some money." >> I love it. >> And so that's [laughter] which I love my audience for that. >> Um that's so good. >> Yeah, that's great. So I think it's just a balancing act. You've got to be careful and um it's like everything in life, you know, everyone needs to pay the bills and you know, creators, content creators are putting out a lot of content for free. It takes a lot of time. >> Um but it's

always about just being strategic with the ads that you take. I love long-term agreements. Yeah, maybe you could make slightly more money if you did individual ones, but I love a long-term agreement because I love the companies I work with. They're like family to me. >> Yeah. Cool. That's great. >> And I love the products that I support. And so, yeah, it's a balancing act and it's one I I mean, I think it takes, you know, time to figure out and I'm sure I'll I'll make decisions that I'll look back and be like, oh, but >> for now I'm very careful and also I have a very my parents and my partner are very very intelligent people and they always they tell me. So, I'm

lucky. Yeah. Yeah, they do. They're really like even my mom works in marketing. She's just incredible at her job. So, I've got a lot of smart people around me. >> That's great. Oh, well that was what I was going to ask is like where did you how did you learn this process of contracting and figuring out what to charge and are you still like tell me about that. Are you still learning did you learn it from somewhere else? Was it a part of that digital PR place that you played in? >> How did you learn how to negotiate these? >> Um I'd say if you met my mom and my dad you [laughter] probably get why >> they're very much um I've learned a lot

from them. I'd say it's probably my parents. >> Uh, and also just keeping an open mind, listening, you know, looking around and um, understanding the industry. I think I'm still probably learning. Yeah. >> But, um, >> yeah, I'd say it mainly comes from from my family, learning from them. And, of course, you I've worked on the other side of the industry. I get it. I get what marketing budgets are like. I get what they're like in this economy, too. >> And so, I think that's probably all >> worked together. and um yeah led me to be able to manage them. I'm proud of the fact that the companies that I've worked with have all continued re you know recontinued the contracts. So and I've managed

to grow with the companies and so for me that makes me really happy that I'm helping them and they're helping me and so um >> yeah good situation. >> I like it. I think it's good. Okay. I I was obviously there are some people out here and they'll tell me and I mean you can tell me on camera, off camera if you want to, but they'll tell me like numbers. That's definitely not enough. Like it's way off. >> Yeah. >> And I've definitely told them >> you've been exploited. Just don't know better. Um but >> the reason why I don't think that's the case with you is because you can't live off those numbers if you've been exploited. There's just no way. There's just no

possible way. >> Oh, no. Exactly. you know, otherwise you're doing three ads a day to be able to to live on that sort of thing. That's obviously unsustainable. >> So, you know, when someone's living fulltime, even if they've got a partner, like I'm not saying that is in your case, but I've had other people who've had a partner who works full-time so that they can build it up. Even that it means you're charging enough. You just might not be quite big enough to get it is. But there's definitely like people who are just getting absolutely exploited like paying getting paid less than what a UC would >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, for content to their audience, which is crazy. >> Yeah. You're getting

both the content and the audience. >> Exactly. For an influencer. >> Exactly. And that's why I think it's really important to have good people around you. So, you know, I'm blessed that I have my my freaking >> insanely [clears throat] smart mother, [laughter] >> my mama. um who always has my best interests >> and I also have friends in the industry as well that have you know given me a lot of information and stuff. So I'm I'm very blessed in that way. Um but I'm sure yeah I'm sure at the beginning of my my time on Instagram I did a few things that I would look back and be like Alice know. >> Uh but it's just a learning experience. >> Well it's like what

you're saying right that that that story takes 26 years to come about and it's just part of that journey. You just you just had to get to it. Um, and I think even for me, like in my journey, like I think when I first started this business and I used to see a lot of these crazy deals, I used to be a lot more of like an evangelist about it, be like, "This is [ __ ] Like people got to stop doing this or whatever. You're an idiot. Like charge more." And then I kind of realized like probably a couple years ago now. Um, no, they don't. Like they're going through the process. They have to go through it. Like there's only so much you can tell

them. They have to from experience. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. And like I used to try and say a bunch and they wouldn't listen, but they weren't listening because they weren't ready to hear it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, they needed to see it. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. >> Tell us a little bit about um like you talked a little bit about where you go with like your own products and whatnot moving forward, but like how do you see this playing out longterm? Like what is the goal? Like what is the um perfect say even one to threeyear plan? For me, the perfect one to threeyear plan is to continue to create really accessible, affordable recipes and help people. >> Um, obviously now it's my

job, which is great. So, in terms of a career >> place, I would love to >> sell books. I want to own the books. >> Yeah. >> Um, and eventually sell, you know, food and product as well. So, as a bit of a background, my partner is a chef and we work together now. >> Uh, which is awesome. So, I'm sure that we'll end up selling some food of some sort, but also we want to create, I guess, a little bit of a mini empire um and continue to expand it out, but very much >> like a media empire. Is that kind of the idea? >> So, I think that would be really awesome. I'd love to do something on TV. I'd love to do

um some more documentaries because I obviously have that sort of investigative mind with my background and my politics >> and um yeah, and and and to start I want to start selling I guess Probably books will be the first thing that I want to do. >> Yeah. >> Did you watch the Did you I don't know if you saw the episode we did BJ with books. >> Yeah, I've seen shorts of it. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, that's a great episode to read cuz she's built an empire. >> Yeah. >> And I was blown away with her episode. Like I have to get her in again cuz she just just did not stop for like an hour. Just rattled >> and I and like I took

a lot. She just like going at me and I was like trying to make sense of this all this gold that she was giving me. But the thing that was so good, which I know is a thing, but I didn't realize how successful hers was, was just website. Yeah. >> And just how much money just of people going there. So like, >> do you do the same or have you got the same place for people to go find your websites outside of the video >> like to go to >> the recipes? Sorry. Yeah. >> The recipes. Yes. But I'm not all of them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's what she did >> and that's where so much of her money. like >> go watch

the episode cuz I can't remember all the specifics >> and but even just like do a collab with her or something like she's cool. She's awesome actually. >> Um she's so smart and she wants she told me everything. She's like I want everyone to know like it's not that hard to make business just got to you just don't know if you don't know >> and she has this website which is just now ranks. I mean I know where you used to work so you know how to get stuff to rank and you know at least the industry and she just had it getting so much traffic because of the recipes. >> Yeah. Then she just had, you know, um an ad tool that put ads

on the pages. Yeah. Exactly. And it just prints her a check every month and that's pays for the whole thing. >> That's amazing. >> Honestly, when she Oh, when she was telling me I was like that's phenomenal because like it it becomes such a >> the cost will never go up >> for that, but the revenue will. >> Exactly. >> So then that then feeds everything else. you know, now she's got books coming out and all sorts of stuff, but she's like, "The books are cool, but they're credibility pieces as opposed to money." >> She's like, "They don't they're not going to make me anywhere near the same money as my website." >> Yeah. Exactly. >> But it gives me so much more credibility. >>

Exactly. >> As a as a published author, multiple bestselling books and whatnot. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I was like I was actually blown away. I was like cuz I like, >> you know, probably my brand is like the guy who knows how to do business models and whatnot and how to make money out of [ __ ] And then she was telling me that I was like, "Fuck." >> Yeah. >> Maybe you should have my job. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like it was so good. I was I was actually so impressed when I was listening to it. But um anyways, I say that story because it is an interesting one to think about because it's so much easier to not to never sell anything. That's what she's

doing. >> She's never selling. She's just making content. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And then but then she controls um now she controls this traffic flow. She doesn't have to broker deals with everyone. She just has a tool that brokers the deals for her, you know, in an AdSense style way. >> Um, but then she is able to do these other things more from a perspective. So cookbooks don't become a [ __ ] that's better sell good. >> Yeah. >> To a look how awesome I am. My next cookbook and I've made it go um bestseller. >> Yeah. >> And that's what she wanted. The bestselling labels. >> Um anyway, when you think about that, like you think about like cookbooks and whatnot, like >> what does that

media empire look like with you and your partner? Like you say you want to be on TV, cookbooks and whatever. Like does it is it just the two of you as you grow? Does the brand build? Do you bring in other people? Like >> is it a business? Like >> Yeah. I mean I'm sure >> do you want it that big? >> Um yeah. I mean I think it it's a matter of >> figuring out I guess as we go what we need. And I know that sounds weird. >> No, but it's Yeah, I get it. >> But >> with media changing so much, tools changing as well >> what we what we might need. in one year's time we wouldn't have even imagined now.

>> So, uh I definitely >> want to make sure that we are I guess >> very much driving I guess the direction. >> Yeah. >> Uh in the community. It's really important to me. >> But if we get other people on board, that would be awesome. Yeah, for sure. But I'd be I'd be >> I I don't know if you can probably tell from the conversation that we're having, I'm very like careful with every single step that I take. >> Yeah. No, I can see that. And I think that's probably kind of what I want to highlight too for other people that um it is quite important >> to take it really carefully. >> I think like in the world, creative world, it's quite easy

to um >> it's quite easy to do nothing and it's also quite easy to do a lot. >> It's very hard to find the balance in the middle. >> Yeah. >> There's a like a creator I watched for years um Matt Devela. Do you know who that is? He's on YouTube. Matt Devela. He's a American guy, married a girl from Sydney. Now they live between the two. I think he's in Sydney. Do you know? Yeah. And um he like crashed and burned about two years ago. Like he had 15 staff at one point. Had to fire them all, let them all go, close a new stuff because he just like scaled up this business. >> Yeah. Cool. Want to build this big creative business. But

like the revenue didn't grow with it. >> Oh yeah. Exactly. >> It all started to collapse. >> Yeah. And and that's why I think you'd have to be really really careful. And also, you know, like people probably can tell this from my videos is I I love my life. I have a very simple life. My dream is to to >> be with my partner, have a couple of kids, >> be able to, you know, raise my children and have a job at home. That was one of my real like >> to be honest, one of the main reasons why I really wanted to start my Instagram was because I wanted when I become a mother and hopefully you know three, four, five years, I can

do that >> from home cuz I was raised with parents that worked from home. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And I loved it. >> For me, that's also a real goal. And I'm not chasing a life that's super >> Yeah. Okay. Cool. >> And I really care about what we do and the message that we are trying to portray. >> Yeah. And so for me, yeah, I want to grow it. Yeah, I would love to get to a place where the money gives me freedom. I can just live my life and know that I can, you know, look after my parents and my children and go to Italy when I want. And I would love that, but it's not about creating this massive the money money.

It's more about I I really care about what I do. Yeah. >> And um >> yeah, it's I don't know if I'm if I'm articulating it well, but >> No, that makes sense. And like and why I'm sort of having the conversation because I think um it's like balancing the ambition with like reality a little bit like >> like sometimes um you can still shoot for growing something huge without having to change who you are. Exactly. Which is really important to me. And even like, you know, it's interesting because a couple of weeks ago, I'm like weirdly ambitious. Like really ambitious. [laughter] >> And like everything I do, I need to be like the best. Like I've just picked up knitting because I've realized I

need to [laughter] learn how to do things and not give up if I'm [ __ ] So I'm doing knitting now. That is so good. But um but like I a couple of weeks ago had a couple of, you know, days where my videos my views were a little bit lower. Like I'm talking like 2% below your average reel, you know? like that survive >> and I was so defeated and I just said to my mom like I need to have an attitude adjustment. I will not be one of those people that ends up in a place where they dreamed of this a year ago. I dreamed of this >> uh and and be dissatisfied or wanting consistently wanting more. So, it's really important for me to

like wake up every day and actually just enjoy what I'm doing and enjoy the place that I'm at. And that's where I need to manage my ambition. Yeah. >> And my partner is really good at that. He's very ambitious, but he goes out in the garden and just is in the moment and loves it. And so for me, I think it's important to grow it. Yeah. But enjoy every step and every stage of it because I do not want to end up, >> you know, 50 years old and realize I didn't enjoy any of it. I'd be very sad. >> Yeah. >> So, >> I mean, yeah, for sure. Like >> it would be >> I think it would be quite hard for you to

not enjoy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> given the lifestyle that you're building and it'll only build better. But I guess maybe a more important thing is like >> not to um forget how far you've come. >> Exactly. >> We talk about it a lot actually. Like was it today Jan was talking about it? Yesterday we're talking about there's a book I don't know if you've read the book Gap or the Gain. >> No, but I've heard about it. >> Yeah. It's a real good book. It's essentially what you're talking about which is like >> um the idea is that if you're in the gap you're thinking about your ideal future >> and the ideal future is like a horizon that will never arise arrive because

as you get closer you you grow your expectations. So you going oh I've dropped 2%. Wow, six months ago, I would have loved for that drop to 2% [laughter] number. That would have been awesome, right? >> And now you because you're used to the 2% high, you're like, "Oh my god, I'm backwards." But you're not really like it's it's still awesome. >> It's just it's just business. It's just waves of business. >> It's just the waves, right? And so, but often people look forward and then that reflection of looking at idealized future realizing you can never get there is depressing. >> Yeah. But then if you only ever look like but instead if you look back and you look at how far you've come and

that gain you look at the gain that's a much far more positive endorphing driven like way to live. >> Oh yeah. >> And so you go no I actually am stoked like I'm 10x where I was or 100x where I was a year ago. >> Exactly. >> And that's like a real important piece which is less about like >> like you're going to enjoy life regardless. Yeah. But it's just like um am I going to do it with like gratitude or am I going to do it with like desire? >> Yeah. >> And desire like is real painful and stressful and >> it saps a lot of energy out of us. But like >> gratitude that's a whole different thing. >> Exactly. And I think

I think you need both, you know. I think if I wasn't like built wired like this, maybe I wouldn't be where I'm where I am now. But it's just keeping that always in check and and making sure that I maintain that perspective and I enjoy the process and where I'm at right now. So >> what I say to this one over here, Amy, she's veryious. She's like crazy ambitious for a 21-year-old. But I say to her like cuz she's always looking at this ideal future is the same thing. But I said if you look back say 6 months and you go see how much is percentage you've grown. >> Yeah. and you know the things that got you the growth, then you can just expect

it to happen again. >> Exactly. >> So therefore, you can like you can still be ambitious knowing it's going to happen, do all the things, but you don't have to worry about it. It's like a foregone conclusion. >> Whereas if you stress about the ideal future, then you're always going to be in a negative gap mindset. >> Exactly. So by understanding what got you from here from yesterday to here um in that gain mentality then of course I'm going to get to there you know like I know how this business is turning six in a week and I know how we got here in six years. >> Yeah. >> I know where we'll be in six years from here. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. That's pretty exciting. Um I I quite like it's quite interesting to hear someone at your age pretty ambitious to already be there like in a place of this is not necessarily this is enough but I don't need global domination. >> Yeah. And I'm like you know I don't know how to put it. I'm real happy. I'm a real I'm a I'm in a really good place in my life. And um >> I think again I I really do credit a lot of that to my partner because he just has the most wonderful outlook on life. But I think >> I really enjoy what I do. I enjoy the community that I've built and >> yeah, I've got a really good people

surrounding me that keep me grounded and keep that perspective in check. But um >> yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. As we like this has already been like 50 minutes. I'm at 142. No, this is great. Don't be sorry. [laughter] >> Don't be sorry. This is great. It's great that we got to this point. So, well, it still took the same amount of time, but it felt quick. >> Yeah. >> Um, what's the very next thing you want to do like in terms of ticking something off that list? >> Uh, the next step to that media company that you're going to build, what's the next step? >> Well, two things. The first thing that I'm doing now, which I didn't do at the start, which I kind

of wish I did, but that's all right, is grow my other platforms. So, I'm big on Instagram, and I was like, Instagram is my thing. I'm not doing anything else. Now I've realized, no Alice, you need to be across all of it. So my goals at the moment is to grow Facebook, Tik Tok, and YouTube. >> Have you put the content there at all? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I have. Oh, yeah. >> Now I have, but as of last week. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. [laughter] >> So, you know, >> how's it going on Facebook so far? >> Facebook is going like relatively well. >> Yeah. I would assume this content would do well on Facebook. It's doing well. >> It's very Facebook content. >>

And it's very interesting, too, cuz you'd think that people would recognize like they would be the same people, but they're not. Just >> I don't go on Facebook, but I know to people who watch all their reels on Facebook. >> Yeah, exactly. >> That's a bit weird, eh? But they do. >> Yeah, exactly. And if they're what I mean, if this goes on Facebook high. >> Yeah. >> But um >> unless you can get paid from it. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, growing those platforms and then >> depending on when this comes out. So I'll have to confirm if this can go out or not, but depending on when it comes out, we're also writing an ebook, which we're really excited about. So um

>> you can write a time stamp then, Amy, just in case we need to delete this. Um but yeah, we're we're doing that and that will be really exciting. I'm doing writing it with Orian and um we're very excited for that and it's just continuing to >> build the content. We've got so many ideas. >> We're chefs like so we're just constantly thinking of cool food ideas that we can do following the news, whatever's going on, what'sever whatever is expensive. >> So we just go after and there's so much. So it's fine. Never run out. [laughter] >> Oh, hey, it's so good to see you. and um one see you in person and two just like you can I you said before I'm really happy

and like you could tell >> a >> now you can tell like I feel like last time I spoke to you I I do remember thinking like to I said to Joan I was like I it's not that I feel sorry that was the wrong that's not the way but I can't really articulate the words but I felt like you were kind of in a rock and a hard place >> yeah I was in a very that I was in a very bad patch in my life >> yeah you could kind of tell a little bit I was like I wish we could do something for it but I I just can't like I just didn't know how to make it work. And then now

seeing you, I was like, "Oh, fuck." Russian life now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. >> Oh, hey, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. That was awesome. >> Awesome. Thank you so much. >> Awesome. Uh, cool stuff.