From Debt to Digital: Rachel's Financial Transformation – The Savvy Saver.

So I kind of always had this really naive perception that if you owned a home, you were good with money. So everyone around me who owned homes, I just kind of assumed that they were just better than I was. When I quit my job, it was because of something that was beyond my control. We didn't have any savings. Like we had absolutely nothing. >> What happens if Savvy Saber follows up and you need to stop down and somehow you get your content even better and you're like there's a million people following. How does that change the game? >> I think I would take it a bit more seriously. All right, Rachel. Hello. Welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. >> Thank you.

>> Um, it's going to be a fun one today actually because, uh, I love talking about money and I love talking about finances and, uh, a lot of the things that I've seen you talk about on your channel. Um, I just didn't know past. I know now. And I was lucky fortunate to have someone who taught me a lot of things that you talk about. Uh, and so I think this will be really valuable to a lot of people. So yeah, really excited to have you here. >> Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you. >> No worries. Okay, so um your uh journey is quite interesting for me. So >> uh tell me if I got it right, but like >> um >> you

were in a bit of debt. >> Yep. >> You're in a bit of debt and and kind of like in a situation where that was quite overwhelming. Does that is that is that how you'd put it? >> Yes, definitely overwhelming. Um, but also kind of my norm. So, like growing up, my parents were kind of always on credit cards and I just kind of thought that everyone did it. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, it was kind of my normal, but also I knew deep down that it really wasn't normal. >> Uh, that's so interesting. Hey, I think that's like such a common thing in today's world where debt, credit card debt, spending by beyond your means is like such a normal part of life now,

especially with the rise of like buy now pay later. Yeah. just like the crazy amount of people who have buy now pay ladies right now. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, super interesting. Okay. Cool. So, we're gonna dig into this a little bit, but I would like you to take me back around your um journey with content creation actually rather than >> if people want to know about your debt story, they can go watch your debt story um on your channels, but I kind of want to know just like where did this content creation piece start? Because I haven't seen the beginning of your journey. I've seen what you've done recent times, but like >> why did you start making content about this stuff? How did

it happen? So for me like I mean my background is in like legal. So I'm actually like a qualified lawyer. Um and so when I quit my job it was because of something that was beyond my control. So I got pregnant. I got really sick with the sickness called hyperemesis. And I pretty much had no option but to quit my job. Um we didn't have any savings. Like we had absolutely nothing. And life at home was kind of a little bit tricky because we just got married. we were still living with my parents and you know um family chaos. It's it's hard like it's good for a period of time living with your family but then at some point you kind of have to branch

out and go out on your own. And we knew that we couldn't do that in our position cuz we had maybe just enough money for a bond. Um and so we kind of just bit the bullet and did it. And I knew that I needed to make it work because I was a stay at home mom and the only way that we could make it work was if we made some serious life changes. And so throughout my journey, I kind of started speaking to people and I thought that everything that I knew was like I guess common sense or what everyone did. And after speaking with a lot of people, I realized that it wasn't. Like my systems and my kind of beliefs were totally

different to I guess what a lot of people were talking about on social media. And so my friend was just like, "Hey, you should just post some videos." And I knew absolutely nothing about social media. Like I was one of those people that hid from the camera growing up. like I was behind the camera taking the photos, not being in the photos. And so it was so foreign to me. And so I started posting and I really just thought that it wouldn't really go further than maybe like a couple hundred people if that. Like I kind of thought it was for my friends. Um and then it just kind of took off and I was like, "Okay, I kind of need to get good at

this now." Like people people are watching me and expecting things. And so I just kind of yeah threw myself in and did the cringe content. You know, everyone starts off cringe. I did the cringe, got through it, and now I'm like a little bit better. >> You're playing it down. When When was that time? Like, give me a give me a time frame. What year was this? >> So, I started my page in I think it was like 2022, >> but I didn't really take it seriously until maybe like a year and a half, two years in when I saw that it was kind of growing. Um, but prior to that it was it was kind of just for me like I didn't really think

anything would ever come of it. >> Yeah. Interesting. And okay, it's from that point in time to now like just in general like what's changed like for you? How did that change by the time like since you started doing that? Like what changed once you started putting out this content and getting these this sort of following? >> Um, I think for me like it opened a lot of doors. Um, not just for people to come and like speak to me and like just open up their situations because a lot of people were kind of in the same situation or I had a lot of moms messaging me and be like, "Hey, like I really want to be a stay at home mom, but I didn't

think it could work. Like our income's kind of similar to yours. Our expenses are kind of similar." So, it kind of just made a people a lot of people realize that there's a different way to live. Um, and from that, like I actually gained like a financial wellness consultant kind of casual job. And so all of these opportunities have kind of come up that were really just an accident >> because of people knowing who you were. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. >> Yeah, that's great. That's something like I say to a lot of people too over especially businesses um >> the one of the best benefits of brand building um whatever that brand building might be is that there's these unknowns that you didn't know would

have happened. There was no way you could have thought this opportunity was an opportunity. >> Yeah. it came to you and like it starts to change your life a little bit. >> It definitely does. >> Yeah. Okay. Something is real interesting. I did know that your background is that you're a lawyer and I think that that's super fascinating for people and I think that's probably part of the reason that your story resonates a lot with people is that >> if a lawyer can't do this. Um, so that's kind of interesting like that even at that point in time like you're well educated person that this idea of financial literacy or the way that we save or spend money or apply to debt like it's not

a knowledgebased thing. It's not like a um a smarts a smartness thing, right? Like talk to me about that. Why is that? Do you see that more often in your community as well as like the types of people coming through just like walk? How's that look? >> Well, it's it's interesting because I kind of always had this, I guess, really naive perception that if you owned a home, you were good with money. And I always believed that. So, everyone around me who owned homes, I just kind of assumed that they were just better than I was. Um, and through kind of the work that I'm doing, like I realized that that actually has no correlation between there's no correlation between the two. And I have

some, I guess, welloff family members. um and they actually watch my content and think I never even knew that. So they like pay people to manage their things and they don't even know what's happening behind the scenes. So it kind of just made me realize like I know nothing. Like I everything I thought about finances is crap. Like put it bluntly like >> Yeah. total crap. like I kind of had to learn, you know, you go on social media and you see all this stuff about wealth and investing, but nobody was really talking about like how do you actually just survive because a lot of people are just surviving and that I think there's this like I guess like it's a taboo subject because nobody

wants to just survive in this economy but it's the reality. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, no one wants to survive because like you don't actually get out of the problem, right? Like the problem is still there. You're not you're just on Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Um, so I mean that's kind of interesting then because like like what does that like what does that say about how we're raising about money in New Zealand? >> Yeah. I don't know like honestly everything that I've kind of learned so I've I've read a lot of finance books um and I've kind of taken what I liked taken what I didn't and kind of like you know come up without like my own sort of system. And what I've realized is

it's it's less about like money and it's more about like your mindset and your systems. And people aren't really teaching that sort of thing. Like they're teaching you invest your money, go get a job, but nobody's really talking about what the actual problem is. Like a lot of the time the problem isn't the money, it's the spending or the habits or your beliefs. And that's kind of the thing where I try and change. >> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Do you think that there's a bigger role uh in the world like or or what is it that schools, families, banks like what are what what should people at an institutional level what should change? >> I think they just need to teach the basics. >> Yeah. Um

I know that you know there are a lot of courses that teach like business skills and econ economics or you know investing like on a very basic level but people actually don't know the basics of how do you actually create a budget like how do you put your money against your income and expenses and make it work like make it you know flush. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Okay. It's it's the curse of knowledge that you have when you know all this stuff, forgetting that other people don't know it >> and then um you also forget to know to teach it because >> you assume you know that curse of knowledge is like well [ __ ] of course everyone knows how to like budget their money

out to do it. >> Yeah. Then and then also do like one thing I always struggle with with this conversation is at that level of institution is it um is this problem bigger or more necessary than the problem of how to better manage your money at like a investment perspective. I always find that argument kind of interesting one have like for instance like the government can't the government schools everything can't tackle everything >> resources or time or whatever. Yeah. >> But in your mind like just from the response of your audience like how do you think that basics learning is actually more important? Like do you actually think it is at a wider New Zealand level it's more important than the argument around investment? >>

I think so because I think it's all interrelated. I mean, you could quite easily pay someone to manage your money on your behalf and put them into the investments, but you'll never really understand it. And you know, people still like this human nature kicks in, right? You can get some really good honest, I guess, investment brokers and you can get some really not so honest ones and you would never know the difference because you don't know the basics of managing the money. So, you just trust them, put all your trust in them and get screwed over potentially. >> Yeah, great answer. I love that because it's true, right? It's like anything in life like if you don't know the basics then yeah you can have

the wall pulled over your eyes. People want to bad actors and stuff. Okay cool. Okay enough about investment. I want to know about you. So where are you now? Like your your brands you know there's like probably I don't know 40 50k or something that follow you around the show now. Um >> what what is life now for you from a career perspective today? You know April May. No what is this not even April? What? >> It's May now. God. 9th of May 2025. Like what does life look for you now as a career? Like where are you? How are you moving forward with this new brand that you're building? >> Yeah. So I um I'm starting to I guess partner with a few more

like finance based agencies. So like insurance companies and stuff like that. So I'm really trying to I guess stay in my niche. Like I'm staying in my lane. I don't want to really vary from that cuz that's why people follow me. Um, but also through this, like this sounds real cliche and real dodge, but someone who owns this company that I work for, they actually slid into my DMs and were like, "Hey, do you want a job?" And it's a bit weird. Like, I thought that it was a scam at first and I was like, I really need to check this. This is a bit odd like how I didn't apply for any job. Like, this is really odd. Anyways, it ended up checking out.

And so, now they're paying for me to be a become a qualified financial adviser um in the investment scheme. And so I think that's kind of the direction I'm going whether I do that as a career. I think it's still really good knowledge to be able to like help grow my platform. >> Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. Right. Like um so you uh telling me right now that like you got this one platform that talks at this basic level, but then your profession and what you potentially go into a career is like helping them then take all that knowledge applying it into this investment world that you kind of >> were saying before. is like some more advanced stuff, but here on the safer is like

this is how you do the basics kind of thing. Is that kind of the approach that you think you'd take as you move forward even into like if you were to become a full-time financial adviser? >> Yeah, I think so. Like I think like at the beginning it was just about the basics because I was kind of in the basics, right? Like I that's what I that's where I was in my level of understanding. Um, but as I'm kind of growing, I've realized that I think my page is more about like breaking down concepts that people don't quite understand. So, if that goes beyond like budgeting, that's okay because that's kind of like how I've built it up. Like, here's a really basic way of

understanding things. And if I can apply that to a bunch of different things, like even like legal eventually, I don't know, then I probably will do that. >> Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. Um I one thing I see with like a lot of people's niches and you you've sort of already hit on this like stay in your lane >> is that they they grow as they grow try to grow with the audiences right they're trying to grow and develop in it >> but actually like um it's sometimes better like the one the audience who grows and has gone beyond the budgeting help >> um you almost need to let them like they they will be connected with you and still start watching a bit of content

here and there. But actually one of the one of the pitfalls that people can get into in this is well I'm going to keep on teaching you more stuff >> because I'm going to think about that person who's been out there from the beginning >> but actually you're really teaching all the new people coming in. That's too and I think you've already kind of touched on that like standing I think creators listening like >> if you're someone who does educational content or anything of like showcasing um how to grow >> it's like really appealing to be like oh I'm going to like now teach you this stuff and this stuff and this stuff >> actually all you really need to do and I can see

it actually from some of your stuff because you just do the same video but on a slightly different scenario kind of thing is like actually no I just keep teaching the same basics day in day out. >> Yeah. And I actually really like that because like there's like different people I watch in the entrepreneurial space or marketing space >> and the videos that resonate with me them with them the most. It's the stuff I've heard them say a hundred times. >> Yeah. >> And it's like a good affirmation like oh that's still the right thing to do. >> Like you know in your case it's like >> budgeting's still good. >> It is a good trap that people's a bad trap that people get stuck

into. But I think like you probably got I mean you just said it stay in your lane and understand very important but I think >> it's important for other people who might be listening to say >> make sure that as you grow this channel you stay in the audience that it's for you don't >> especially it's educational you can grow somewhat but if you start growing out of that audience >> will change the audience it will change the whole the whole channel that it's in. >> Yeah. >> So it's kind of interesting. So, okay. Um, when you think about this career potentially being in a financial advisor or whatever it might be, um, what happens if Sebie Saber blows up and becomes and you just

double down and somehow you get your content even better and you like there's a million people following >> like >> how does that change the game for you? >> I think I would take it a bit more seriously. So, honestly, like this is honest truth. I literally have an idea. I film it. I cut a few things and I post it. Like >> 10 minutes, done. And I don't think that's how it's supposed to be in content creation because I see a lot of creators like putting a lot of time and I'm like maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe I would put a bit more time into like my editing and my storyline and my content. I don't know. >> You know that that's an

interesting point to talk about. Like tell me tell me why do you think that? Why do you think you need to put more time and energy? Does that is that truthful you just or is that just like a knee-jerk reaction because you see other creators do cool [ __ ] >> Uh maybe both. Like I do see a lot of other creators and I think from like a brand perspective their type of videos maybe are more I guess like enticing. Um whereas my videos are very like you know I'm like your friend. I'm talking to you. Like this is me and you talking. And so I feel like I I definitely need to get better at the content that brands would see me as like valuable for.

But >> it's a work in progress. >> Yeah, that's an interesting point you just said there. Like what's the content that brands want to see you >> want to see for them to sponsor you or whatever or do paid things. I think that makes sense. I think the thing around content creation which a lot of people get uh confused about is like they think the people who are really good at making content like are very good at it and do all the planning, do all the strategy, editing They make a lot of that sort of stuff. >> Um, they are like the massive minority of the world. Like there aren't people who are that good who just know how to do stuff exceptionally well. >>

I mean I know that because one we have a business that like does that for people and if everyone could do it if they just tried harder. >> We have a business and it's not true right like >> it's it's one of those things that actually it's really hard to do it really well. And actually my my advice to most people is >> um instead of trying to make it better straight away instead of just going you know what this person over here is doing it really cool I'm going to go do what they're doing. >> Yeah. >> Or I'm going to try or I'm just going to you know what today I'm going to like just think I'm going to edit and make a

way better video. I'm going to spend four hours on >> and you hear a lot of people who do that and they're like I spent four hours and I got like half the views I usually get. Well that's right. >> Yeah. And the reason is is that like that the problem wasn't the editing. >> The problem wasn't the like um production value of the piece of content. The the point of it was just that like there was a a story or the truth of this piece of content didn't resonate with the audience >> because we know that you've got content that's blown up that is low production versus people who have really high production uh videos >> didn't go off. And so >> you everyone

understands that like fundamentally that no that isn't actually the purpose or the reason. It's just like oh I'm not really putting much effort in it. And it's like well actually like >> go look at some of like the biggest people in the world. I mean the biggest person on TikTok KBY Lane doesn't put any effort. >> Yeah. >> No. I mean this content is great because he's he's nailed the niche but >> yeah effort in right. It's just like does the same action the same face every single time. Actually, that's the kind of point I was trying to get to is that what you should be doing anyway is like if if it was me is like what is the system I can create of

content that looks the same every single time >> has a really human truth in it. And you've got some of this here like you you constantly refer back to this like 20k a debt. How do we get out of it? There's like a narative brand narrative there. But how do you showcase the video the same way each time so actually you can get faster at doing it >> but >> gives it people to come back to every single episode. content. So, actually, like the only thing I would say with your content >> when I looked at it is that >> I want it to be more similar, >> you know, like >> like you've got you'll go from a piece of content saying you got

a similar story background, but you'll go from one of you talking head to one of like uh you showing your kid. >> Yeah. >> And then like >> it's very mismatched >> perspective that's so different and like Am I following this person because they're a mother doing this or am I s doing this because this is a person who knows how to save like who is your audience? Is it >> are we trying to attract mothers who are looking to run the household >> one type of piece of content? Are we just trying to find people in general who are looking out of like save and budget another >> conversation audience and just go after that and that can encapsulate the mother's audience as well.

So pick and choose. But >> I actually like most of the time I think to people like you don't need to try harder. You actually need to try simpler. >> Yeah. >> Like that's the interesting thing. Like if you can do it simply then you'll do it better. >> Yeah. >> A good example is I don't know if you ever saw I don't know if you ever saw the attention seekers like water bucket one that we did with Joanie for like >> I did. I did see that. I was very invested. >> Just the me and Joy when we came up we spent like That took us so long to come off that piece of content >> because weeks and one Sunday afternoon we sat

there for like four or five hours. >> Yeah. >> Just wrecking our brain. At one stage we're going to set stuff on fire >> this entire thing. >> Yeah. >> Stripping it back, stripping it back and going, what is the core essence of this? Why would people follow? What is the core? The core essence is it's a boss versus employee dynamic where she was trying to make me my marketing strategy >> and she did one thing to go this is ridiculous why would this work kind of thing tip the bucket. >> Yeah. >> We were stripped everything out. She didn't talk. It was on screen text. It was 20 seconds long. >> It was literally her like as long as it took to film this

is how how long it took to edit kind of thing. >> Yeah. And um by getting it to its most basic and simple premise was the reason it worked because it was no longer convoluted. People understood what they following along for what they were trying to do. >> Yeah. >> And >> we could evolve it later on into the future because now the audience knew. So now we could add layers to it as we went along. We did food and sorts of crap >> and then we tied it into at the end of the series of >> Kiwi Harvest was kind of our so we tied it into this food phenomen. That was the whole point. Um, so my my my advice to you is

like around that content creation, like how do you make it simpler? >> Yeah. And it's actually interesting that you mentioned that because I've been thinking a lot lately and I've seen I don't know if my FYP is the same as everyone else's, but a lot of it has been like consistency and like when you scroll, right, people see you and they know who you are. And so I've actually been thinking a lot like how do I make people notice me? Because all my videos are kind of like talking to you and that's kind of it. And I mean it's probably my bad. I haven't really done much I guess education around like content creation. I kind of just make it up as I go. So

maybe that's a lesson to be learned. >> You know what like talking head video talking to camera the way you are like talking to someone's friend is a great thing. Consistency is the thing though it's like you're absolutely right. How do you be consistent in show up every day talking day have a consistent narrative that people understand. >> Yeah. Um, also like what is the thing? Like money is such a good topic because it's so um you know it it has such a strong emotional reaction to money. >> To be fair, it's probably the reason why your content resonated so quickly is because um it wasn't just a saving piece. It was just the fact that someone was talking about money because no one does.

>> Yeah. So the the fact that you can so actually my advice to you is like if you feel comfortable talking to camera I would just continue that all day long. >> Okay. >> How do you structure the story? >> Yeah. >> In a way that like really pulls on people's like emotional reaction to money >> so that you can then help them do something about it. >> Yeah. >> You know that's the purpose, right? like I'm pulling on your heart around money because I know this is really painful for you but then here's the solution for it >> and then just finding all the different scenarios that you can talk about that sort of thing. How do you make a >> one one interesting

piece of advice that uh I'm truly standing on this episode by the way. It's a true like I'm sorry I'm gonna go back to talking >> go back is uh is talking like to a specific person each time. So let's say like in really specific, right? Let's say you're going to talk to >> today I'm going to talk to a 24 year old Chinese female student in >> okay >> targeted her. Okay. What does that person struggle with money >> compared to a 52y old male moly man from top? >> Yeah. >> You know like >> Yeah. I get where you're coming from. Yeah. cuz I I feel like all of my content is targeted to a very broad range of people rather than like

one specific person. So, you're basically reading my brain right now. >> I'm good. >> I've been thinking about all of this, but I'm like, how do I fix it? Like, I know there's a problem. I'm like, how do I fix it? You are the fixer. >> No, but I mean, that's the point of like this podcast, actually. It's like >> you It's really easy for someone from an outside perspective to see the problem. >> Yeah. >> Tell you it because I don't have all the other clutter of what's going on. >> And then it makes me sound real smart. It's like, oh, he just cuts through. He's not full of [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> I don't have it. I've got my own [ __ ] because I

can look at my own content and be like, people can be like, Stan, fix your own [ __ ] before you talk. And and there's an there's an argument there for it. And I think that argument comes back to good storytelling. >> Yeah. >> And time and effort. So for me, for instance, is in my businesses. >> Um I don't have the time to make the same level of content that I probably need to to grow my channel the way I do. And actually, when I do do it the right way, my channel, I mean, like when I did it on TikTok probably, I went to 25K followers quite quickly. >> But then I lose the time and my brand is needs to be me because I've

already got the attention seeker, which is >> Yeah. whole team behind it and obvious the face of it. So it's like >> you have to figure out these things and these ways like there's all these things what's the what's the commitment that you need? How do you put the time into it? What's the strategy that there's a lot of things? So >> as someone to do it that's why simplification always matters. >> Yeah. >> Trust you in the process like it's different for me. >> I'm allowed to be a little bit lazy with my own brand because I have >> a business that can afford to do the other things, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. position. I mean, trust me, it was a grind to get

to that point. I didn't have it at the beginning. I had to do it, but >> you get to that point and then now like this stands fing is the best thing I ever did because I mean >> it's my Instagram for instance is only growing because of my because of Stan Spain. >> All I have to do is turn up and talk [ __ ] for an hour and then we >> my team gave me a brief obviously like just try to stick to these points. I've gone completely off them. They're going to get annoyed at me, but that's fine. Then there's like a whole editing process and stuff that just happens. But when you're you don't you don't have all that. We don't you shouldn't

have all that either. >> So, how do you like really keep it simple? So, yeah. >> Yeah. Look, I might be the answer, but only because I don't have all the [ __ ] and it's justation. >> That's a bonus. There's a lot going on up there. >> I got my own [ __ ] I don't own stuff going on. It's fine. Um, okay, cool. So, I just, um, took over the podcast. Um, I'm going to come back to you. think about like like in a in a real world of this channel growing like I don't want to like uh you know deter you from like going into a new career because that's financial services businesses and great and it's a great >> business to go down but like

how like outside of just like getting the content to working properly like how would that actually um even if you did build this up to a million followers, like how would you monetize that? Like how would you use that audience to to build a career and a business out of it? Like what would you do? >> Have you ever thought about that? >> Not I mean on a very vague level, not like anything in depth purely because >> it's kind of like um what do they call it? Tall poppy syndrome. Like I I never feel like I'm going to get there even though I probably didn't think I was going to get to 22,000 either. So um I don't know. But yeah, I kind of

think um like I I think it would really be cool to go and like talk in schools and like you know help with that because you can only rely on like the curriculum and stuff for so much, right? Like you kind of have to be the change. If you if you want change, you kind of have to do that cuz you can't rely on anyone else. And so I I really love the idea of teaching kids because a lot of the time like when I speak to parents like they don't know and I'm like okay cool they're learning and they could easily teach their kids but they don't really put the time in. So I I would love to put the time in to like

help teach their kids you know the very basics. Um but other than that I haven't really thought about it to be honest. How do you like how do you sustain something like that? Like teaching kids, you know, like there's not a lot of money in kids teaching kids stuff and that >> like I mean there is don't teach is a massive billion dollar industry. Yeah. Industry, but like in this financial literacy space where >> it isn't like almost >> the society doesn't desire it just yet the same way, you know, because it's not an institution and stuff. How do you turn that into like a viable business because you've got a family support. So like how do you how do you beat the family by

teaching kids? >> Yeah, honestly like because when I started this I didn't go into it thinking that it was going to become like a monetary thing. I don't think I've ever really put thought into it. Like I've been getting a few like brand deals here and there and it's like cool extra money but I've never really thought like could I turn this into a career and so I think unless I think like that I probably won't come up with any like solutions but it would be great like it would be really good to be able to continue doing what I'm doing because I'm like enjoying it you know teaching people what I already love myself. Um it would be great to be able to turn

it into something but I just yeah haven't really put much thought into it. So, if the Savvy Saver became something that could help you fund your lifestyle, that'd be an awesome outcome. But it's not something that you're like actively pursuing right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, maybe it's just I'm not actively pursuing it because I haven't thought about it enough. Like, I'm kind of one of those people where I've kind of got to know maybe like 80% of what I'm getting myself into before I jump in that rest of the 20%. But, um, yeah, maybe after this conversation we might have a different story. >> Yeah, maybe. I mean, that'd be awesome. I'd love that. So, let's [ __ ] let's try it. Um,

>> I mean, if you had any ideas, then I'm I'm all >> got so many ideas. We're going to go through it. [ __ ] it. This is episodes. >> The first thing that jumps to my mind when you say I want to teach kids this thing is uh JS Thornton and Genevieve, Voices of Hope. The way that they sell their >> the way that they sell is so good. So, I don't know if you know, but they they sell to um corporates to go speak to the men and the women in the corporations and they say, "Look, >> if you pay us this much money, we can talk to this many schools." >> So, >> Oh, that's a cool Yeah. >> my money. >> Because I

really I do watch them like a lot and I always think about those sorts of things like what's going on behind the scenes. So, that's really interesting to know. >> That's their model. I mean, they the only reason I mean, >> they can't be mad at me sharing it because they said it on my podcast. >> And so, and they're real open with it because they're like, "That's the only way." Like, no one's going to pay us to come teach kids >> that isn't monetary. Like, there's no monetary value in the thing that we're teaching these kids. We're just trying to keep them alive. >> Yeah. >> But unfortunately, like >> people don't want to pay to keep kids alive this way, which is kind,

you know, there's no like >> financial incentive actually. Yes, it's a real weird twisted thing, but it's true. Like that's >> you know the world is built on economics. So >> today's world anyway. So if you like that's a good model where you're like talking to a corporation you like hey look like >> so many of your staff are living paycheck to paycheck and like whatever and that's kind of what like actually a lot of financial invest advisor will do that in the Kiwi saver space like >> go and educate like this is why Kiwis saver matters like yes >> we make money off you being in Kiwi Saver >> but there is it is actually a net benefit to you >> to be in

right >> that's actually really sim yeah that's actually really similar to kind of how the business that I work for, they work through like EAP providers and so the EAP providers pay us to give them like consults. That's kind of similar, right? >> Exactly the same. Yeah. >> EAP programs are exactly who are going to pay for this. >> Yeah. >> Think about the proposition to an EIP provider when they're like, I needed this anyway, but I'm also getting to fund these kids learning it as well. >> Yeah. >> Wow. That's [ __ ] cool >> because >> yeah, you might have to do more work for the same amount of money if you could have sold it to them originally, but you probably can also sell

it for a higher price point. >> Yeah. >> Then >> potentially even saying to these service providers that like uh because you you might get benefit out of the work that you do with their employees anyway. So you might not charge them necessary extra. You're just saying it's just an added proposition. >> Yeah. to these people going to HRs and the people in culture people going look >> you're going to do this anyway >> what other company's going to get you the benefit of me teaching kids >> and parents this thing so that's one way of monetizing that talking because like >> I mean you're not going to >> you're not going to sell tickets to an event like this very easily it's really hard

you know it's a real hard thing and actually like >> selling tickets and stuff like that you really you'd need to have a million dollars to sell enough tickets to make it worthwhile for You can't sell a ticket for 200 bucks to tell to save to pay, you know. >> Yeah. >> That's the living crisis, right? >> You have to find out other ways to do it. There there is a there is this old idea that um and and look, honestly, at the start of this podcast, I would have talked about how um the more money you have, no sorry um what am I saying? The the more money you want to earn, you would have gone and got more and more brand deals. to

get more and more brand deals, you would have just built up a bigger and bigger audience. >> Yeah. >> The problem with that line of thinking in today's world is that um even two years ago, I was saying this is a thing. Today is like the saturation of it means that like all influencers and all creators getting paid less. Even more money going into the creative world. >> Yeah. >> There's there's there's just exponentially more creators. Everyone's getting paid. So, it's it's constantly going to get harder and harder to do it. >> That's not a viable way. I know plenty of creators who make very good money >> off brand deals. >> Yeah. >> Um so there's still a viable way and for like >>

but but actually the creators I know who are making enough money to like who are an equivalent pay scale to a financial adviser who's got a good career. >> Yeah. >> They're in the millions of followers. >> Yeah. >> You know they're 4 million followers across their platforms and they're only at the point that a a good financial adviser is equivalent of. Yeah. You know a good financial adviser can easy oh not I shouldn't say easy. It's a really hard job 100k as a good financial advisor. Yeah. In New Zealand if they're doing their work right. Right. And >> um to get to that level as a creator, it's like actually in New Zealand it's hard as [ __ ] Like it's real hard to get to

that level. >> Yeah. >> So I kind of switched my tune a while back about a year ago then to be like okay well what's the product you can sell >> audience rather than getting brand deals. Why don't you just be the product so you can 100%. So nice to think like that was the main thing like this is like what's the products that we can sell >> and then because you saw it all happen around the world and then I realized and you watched it how fickle those businesses are and how quickly they come crumbling down again. >> Yeah. >> So you'll get a big like flurry of purchases at the beginning but then it dies off and it's really hard to keep going.

And I've seen that with like some of the stuff that we've sold initially or like the advertising avenues that we've gone down. Like for instance, we ran started running Facebook ads at stars. Yeah. They went really well. We got a bunch of clients through the door for it. But then now like that initial flurry is like taped off now that really underperforming now. And that and that's like a real typical thing. We even did it with our cohort program. >> I like sold in like 30 something people at the beginning at like 6k a pot. And like they really good. Awesome. And I was like, "Oh, this is great. This is a whole new arm of our business." >> Yeah. sold another one for 6K

since. >> Oh, >> you know, and now we've changed the whole model for how it works >> that I I just had 30 people who'd been following me for so long. >> They were the only 30 people out of tens of thousands who were following. >> Yeah. >> So then I was like, okay, well, [ __ ] um you can't do product. What can you do and how can you do it? And I think actually >> the one the the what my advice to a lot of small creators now is to stop worrying about the monetization piece at the beginning because I mean I kind of always that like the long out the better. >> Yeah. >> There's this combination of building your content brand up the

best which I used to always say was the most important thing. If you just got to four million followers you'd be fine. But actually my advice to people now would be instead of going after four million followers as the primary target, go after the amount of people you can talk to in person. >> Yeah. How do you get into real personal communication and contact >> which means that actually your thing becomes like can I run little like events around maybe >> and my moms and >> you know we go for coffee and I talk about it and we just help them create content from course that goes up into your sphere and whatnot >> but you have like interactions with people >> because what that

will do is it'll open up a bunch of doors way faster than just like content stream coming Yeah. >> You know, because you now know this person, you know, you now know Mary and Mary's like, you know, I work at Font, right? Like, >> yeah, >> relationship building, networking. >> Yeah. >> And then you build out this other thing. So, actually, my advice is um not necessarily what's the actual product you sell. >> It's actually going you got 40, 50, whatever it is. Let's go, okay, let's go pull as many of these micro events that you can pull together working and talking to each other. Don't have to charge. You might charge like $5 to get rid of reference so that you've just got good

quality people there. >> Yeah. >> And then like and then just wait or not wait but like talk about the opportunities that could come later on. And then the thing that you're talking about like the voices of hope do with the guys is that >> that could be one potential really good product or outcome. >> But >> my first thought is like don't worry about that so much. >> Yeah. Because I would say that it's actually it's way easier to get 2,000 3,000 people in person to meet over a course of a year than it is to build a million dollars. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And a thousand true fans, it's that old concept, right? Thousand true fans will make you really wealthy. >> A

million people following you is like way harder to do, way longer. It's going to take. >> Yeah. >> Will they really produce you? Like can you really get enough brand deals to make that sustainable? >> Yeah. No, probably not. >> A little bit right there for you. Yeah, but I feel like also like it would kind of change if I I mean if I was doing that many brand deals, it would probably change the type of my like page and content like from authenticity to like you're getting paid to say this now. So yeah, I agree. Yeah, >> it was like um you know uh what's his name? Luke from Keep the Change. Like he he never took any brand deals with his brand and

his brand had grown massive and you know you're in a similar space of financial literacy for individuals. Um but he like for him it was uh so your your side of the equation is stop the spending or that's probably the way bad way to put it. Um be mindful of the spending. Yeah. His his model was just made more money like yeah get a side hustle go and work some more like you know as a primary narrative is probably >> but also don't get credit cards and don't do pout pay later. He said all this stuff, but his his monetization was obviously the accountancy practice that he has. >> So he had this business that he had like a real legitimate service based business that

it all. >> That is another really good way to think about this which is the financial advisor piece. So just don't ever change saver. Just let it grow me >> and just a really [ __ ] fantastic financial services business. >> Yeah. Because there's so there's actually like so much wealth creation and financial services businesses like financial service people who are really good at what they do. >> Yeah. >> Build very fantastic businesses both insurance mortgages everything. >> Yeah. >> And um and actually then exited really >> I do know Camila to do you know who that is? >> What what was her name? >> Camila to my >> Yes. Yes. Yep. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, I don't know the number she sold out

at, but I I know like she did well. She >> cool, too. She's such a cool person. Like, we know each other >> like that is a great like that is a way better way at monetizing an audience that you build than selling some course or doing some >> Yeah. >> become the best financial advisor. Yeah. >> More sustainable. >> Yeah. way more sustainable, right? >> I'm on like LinkedIn. Like, >> make sure you're selling something of value when you're doing it. Like, our business is a real business behind it. >> Yeah. >> Which has allowed for the growth that we've had because I'm not selling some $49 PDF on how to >> Yeah. >> grow your social media like >> Yeah. >> How many

of those do I have to sell just to pay the wages here, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. Just loves them. The free ones anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, okay. I've gone on so many tangents to say I and I barely talked about your journey and anything but that, but you know what? >> That's all good. >> What's some questions that you might have for me? And we got like five minutes left. Um, is anything followup or >> I mean it's probably like unrelated to what we just spoke about, but >> do it >> kind of left field, but okay. I've grown on like Instagram, right? But Tik Tok, I'm I'm still very low and I just do not get the difference between like to

me. Okay, this is my version of Tik Tok. Tik Tok is like entertain um what do you call it? Instagram is like education. >> Yeah. >> And I do not know why I do really well on Instagram and Tik Tok is just like what are your tips for the Tik Tok side of things? Yeah, that is such an interesting observation that you just made around. So, wait, just let me get this straight. When you say Instagram is education, Tik Tok is entertainment, are you referring to the platforms or your content on each? >> The content possibly. Like I mean I kind of just post the same content on both but what I noticed yeah like on Instagram I could go on someone's page and they

kind of done it in a way where it's very like educational and then I go on Tik Tok and they've kind of talked about the same thing but it's very like entertaining >> not so much like yeah I don't know I could >> I got some good advice you are um defaulting to uh the things that you see and so there's some frequency bias in there and there's some like algorithm uh tunnels. >> Yeah. >> Because of the way you use platforms, >> okay, >> dictating how you're seeing the content on the platforms. >> Because I can tell you right now, there are all types of content on all types of platforms. So, they've got nothing different about them. And in fact, if you were

to say there was anything about it, Tik Tok has specifically as a platform >> deliberately increased and they've said this artificially upvoted education content. >> Okay. >> For them, it is far more important to be an education platform because they're actually not trying to take on Instagram. >> Yeah. >> They were actually initially trying to take on YouTube. >> And so YouTube is the education king. >> Yeah. If you want to know how to do something, you go to YouTube and it'll tell you else, right? >> Yeah, that's true. >> And so I don't think the difference is there. I actually just think that like at the moment on Instagram, Instagram went through a has gone through a period of their algorithm understanding that the

longevity of their business isn't selling ads. Actually, that is what will pay the bills. The reason that we're going to be successful long term is relevancy. And relevancy comes from uh an ability to have people enjoy the content the most. And they they got their and they saw that Tik Tok did that at the beginning. They got their algorithm fixed. >> It now just works so much better at feeding you content that you want to see. So you spend more time there. And there became this feedback loop where a lot of people stopped using Tik Tok as much as you can see that in the data and the numbers that there's like >> so many more people using Instagram. On top of that compounded when

Tik Tok was getting banned in the US. So all the biggest Tik Tok audience in the world >> [ __ ] you Tik Tok. >> Yeah, >> there's so much migration that happened because of like truly like >> in fact >> it is still so unsure of what's happening on Tik Tok that no one actually knows where it stands because it technically should be back off again because the three months is up. >> Yeah. So you're just getting this like and and then and then all at the same time Tik Tok's like, "Okay, we need to start making profit because >> we've been bleeding money for so long now. Now we need to do it." So they had to tighten up their controls and stuff. So all

you had is a platform disintegrate in Tik Tok not understanding what it's needing to do and then it went on Instagram that figured itself back out because if you go back three years ago, >> Instagram was f no one wanted Instagram because it was terrible. It was going and everyone was migrating to Tik Tok. Yeah, >> because we were trying to just monetize the crap out of everything. And so, so my advice to you, how do you win Tik Tok? The eyeballs are still there. There's still shitloads of them. >> Some somehow think of the two separately and that, okay, what is my audience saying on Tik Tok? What are they watching? What are they getting into? >> How am I engaging that audience >>

legitimately? >> Yeah. >> What am I doing in the comments there? So, like my first question is which platform do you personally spend the most time on? >> Definitely Instagram. Okay, same. And be it was always Tik Tok. >> And when and we had this like crisis meeting the other day with me and Jody and the creative team going, >> "Guys, we're never on like none of us are in the comments on Tik Tok. We're never here anymore. Why would as an audience member give a [ __ ] about us right now when we're all on Instagram? Just come on Instagram because that's where they are, right? How do we Tik Tok?" Well, we just need to be in there. >> Yeah, >> we need to be

in there and active. >> So, I think there's an engagement piece that you need to do. You need to be more on it. you need to use it a lot more. You need to understand the audience that's there. And then you start making some, not all, like content specifically tailored just to the Tik Tok audience and what they're asking for. >> Okay. >> I think that's the main fix like yours at the moment that isn't that are viral pieces of content all the time. You know, for people who just make super funny or super relatable content that goes viral naturally. You've got a bit of a niche. So, how do you make sure that that niche works? >> I just got a notification that my

next call is about to start. So, I've just and we've gone on so long. >> It's all good. >> Honestly, I had such a great conversation. It was really awesome to like just connect with you um and talk about this stuff. And I thank you so much for sharing and actually just like being okay with um >> well, one me stands by you, but two also just like sharing your story a lot and like talking about the money side of things because I think you you said a few things today that like a lot of people wouldn't be open to and it just testament to your brand and what you built. So, that's awesome. >> Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. That was

very helpful. on my my end as well. >> N worries. Hey, and and as I say to all, anyone if you do have any questions, mate, just email me. You've got my details. Okay, I will do. Well, thank you so much. Have a great day. You too. Bye. Bye.