Can Creators Save Crypto? w/ James Quinn-Kumar.

Binance is the world's largest cryptocurrency exchange. Facebook had only just come out and now you're seeing like these young kids that have grown up with like socials and so like native on camera making content like launching businesses. I don't want to age myself. I'm all about adoption. I'd love to see crypto continue to grow. For us, we see creators as an extension of that. By partnering with people that have a really authentic, engaged audience, we're able to help educate and build that trust for what is a very still new industry. Today's guest, James Quincumar, is the marketing director for Binance, the world's largest crypto exchange by volume and users. And today we talk a little bit about how he uses creators to grow a community

for a brand that, you know, works in a field which, let's be honest, crypto hasn't always had the most positive light behind it and how he's used those creators and community to build a very strong brand reputation for adoption. >> All right, mate. Welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks for having me. Great. >> No, thanks for coming over all the way over to Sydney. Um, and so, uh, look, I'm looking forward to hearing a little bit about you guys and what you've been doing in the creative space. Um, but first of all, I wouldn't mind you giving us a little backstory. Uh, tell us about your career and where you've come from. >> Sure thing. So, fell into marketing really, not down the traditional Yeah,

not down to the traditional route. I actually studied maths and physics at uni. >> Um, I'd always been really curious in like how things work. Um and then after that I joined uh I went into sports betting as an analyst and then slowly pivoted into more commercial roles and then um after being in commercial roles for a few years decided to focus on marketing and joined Facebook in London. >> Oh okay. >> Uh back in 2017. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Um which is awesome. Uh because like they just >> they were obviously massive then but they were going through some of the like some of the big challenges. Cambridge Analytica and we were going through a >> yeah not a rebirth but like >> it

was a tough time. >> Yeah was like who are we? What we doing here and uh yeah so it was an interesting time. Um and then yeah moved into kind of a product marketing role. >> Yeah. >> Working on the Facebook algorithm. So how the algorithm works for advertisers working with some of the big advertisers on how they can like >> best >> um >> game the algorithm in their favor >> like at a organic level. >> Yeah. Like there was an actual equation um and a component of it was like the creative element >> and that like the better your creative like the less you'd end up paying for advertising because they want good creative on the platform >> which essentially is still the

case right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly exactly the same. Yeah. Um and then yeah from that I uh I actually moved to Australia moved into a growth role for a gaming startup. Okay. >> Um and then from there Tik Tok. >> Yeah. Um again platform side uh again algorithm focused. I was working in uh yeah the bidding optimization kind of area. >> Um but yeah always been super curious about how things work and then like a lot of people went down the crypto rabbit hole in 2020 2021 when everyone was in lockdown like started reading about investing >> and I was just spending so much time consuming podcasts like learning about this stuff. I was like, if I actually think this is going to

be a big thing in the next 10 years, like I might as well move into it and learn from the inside. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then yeah, this role of Binance came up and it it just ticked all my boxes. So yeah, I've been here for three years. Um >> yeah, and uh crypto is pretty wild. >> Yeah. >> It's uh it's a lot more >> immature on the inside than I thought. Um I was like, "Oh, this is a this is, you know, a massive industry. Uh it's very developed." and I got in I was like whoa >> it's still very early >> it's been fascinating to see it grow up >> in the last 3 years but again it's still so >>

when you say it's like quite immature what like is it just like system processes like what is it that's makes it mature >> systems processes yeah exactly that >> everyone just trying to figure it out >> everyone's trying to figure it out like it's relatively complex area right um and that's one of the things that really attracted me as a marketer it's just like how do you take this like relatively complex like technology >> and then simplify it and then communicate the benefits to people in a way that they can understand and and get the utility from it. >> Um and I still think it's a massive challenge like no one's cracked it just yet. I like see so much marketing in crypto and um

>> yeah like we're all trying to figure out how to grow adoption. Um and there's like you know so many different ways to do that but no one's quite like figured it out and you see different exchanges taking different approaches. um we've lent into community massively um and and creators as an extension of that. >> Um but yeah, everyone's still trying to trying to figure it out. So yeah, that's that's absolutely got me here. >> I um I definitely agree with that because as I said to you off camera, I'm going to get you to explain a little bit about what Binance is because of everyone I've talked to, only like I'd say less than 10% of them actually knew what it was. They really

knew what it was. And everyone who didn't know what it was had no clue. They might have heard the name maybe, but didn't know which. which probably speaks to that uh adoption piece that the marketing um has yet crossed into that you know the middle of the bell curve. We're still in early adoption phase which is kind of crazy to think about how many years it's been happening. We're still only in early adoption phase. >> Yeah. >> Like now I understand that indust like there's some industry players and stuff that have moved things a lot along but like the general public probably don't have a good idea yet. But first of all tell me a little bit about like what does Binance do? Just for

people listening going, "What the hell is what is this guy? What does he do? What's his company?" >> Yeah, I probably said a lot without actually explaining what it is. So, uh, Binance is the world's largest cryptocurrency exchange. So, you can buy, trade, sell crypto um, offer over 100 different crypto um, coins and uh, yeah, we're the largest by volume and users. So, just last week we ticked over 280 million that's crazy >> users worldwide, which is pretty awesome. Um >> I mean about to take over Twitter. >> Oh well what you call it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um yeah it's pretty wild. Like you know quarter of a billion people uh on the platform which is which is super exciting. Um but like to your

point like our goal like globally is to >> on board a billion people into crypto. >> So we're a quarter way on that journey like locally is to on board a million Aussies and Kiwis into crypto. Um, and yeah, that mission's like only just getting started, right? I think. Well, actually, today is Binance's birthday. >> Oh, really? So, >> there we go. >> July the 14th. >> Yeah. >> 2017 is when it all kicked off. And we're actually having a bit of a party tonight down at Wolid >> to celebrate our 8 year anniversary. >> You hear that Amy? We got a party tonight. >> Yeah. Come on, Dan. >> Um, >> crazy. That's what, eight years now? >> That's crazy. That's crazy to think.

I mean, of course, it's been that long, but like >> I mean, I wouldn't have really heard I mean, I probably only heard of Binance a few years ago, but obviously knew that it had been around for a bit longer before that. Kind of thought lockdowns when all this stuff kind of happened, but it was like well and truly before that. >> Yeah. >> Cranking through. >> Yeah. Just um >> obviously because Bitcoin's I mean, I've heard of Bitcoin for ages, which is obviously one of the most famous um places where Yeah. the OG. Yeah. >> So, of course, it's been around forever. >> Yeah. So what like Satoshi wrote the Bitcoin white paper in 2008. >> Yeah. >> So what's that 17 years ago?

>> And actually this morning overnight Bitcoin hit it all time high. >> Oh. >> So $119,000 US. >> That's crazy. E >> for a one coin. Yeah. >> It's pretty wild. >> It's a wild journey. >> It is a wild journey. >> But yeah, like to your point still like really small. Um I think the last stats I saw for New Zealand in particular was like 14% >> of people own crypto. um like awareness of crypto is a lot higher. Um but even in our own research like people don't have a very strong understanding of it and even the people that do hold it >> um don't feel confident enough to kind of explain it um >> necessarily. >> Do you think that um for

the general public they're going to hold crypto themselves or they're gonna hold it in some other investment fund that they've got like a like a Kiwi Saver or like a super annuation or like an index fund or something? or do you think they'll actually physically be on there trading themselves? It's >> a great question. Yeah. >> Uh and I'm like, you know, work for the biggest exchange in the world, but I'm all about adoption. I'd love to see, you know, crypto continue to grow. Um and whatever avenue >> it suits people the best, right? >> Um like we've just seen institutional or institutions in the US start offering ETFs in April last year. Yeah. >> Um which is like opening up the category to a

whole new group of people. Um and it's reach meeting people where they're at. >> Yeah. Um I think the Canadian pension fund has like started allocating to crypto like 1% and they're traditionally quite conservative, right? >> Yeah. >> Uh so it's like a massive sign of intent for them to start allocating. Um but yeah, I think >> people will >> there's such a massive culture of like investing in in New Zealand and and property ownership. Uh and so people are well the way I see it is like >> is it going to overhaul the entire financial system not sure not sure I want that either but will it make up a proportion of someone's like diversified portfolio like for sure. Yeah, it is an interesting

question to have because like um I think about like myself or other people I know who invest or or have investments and how many of them actually use exchanges even for the stock like how much them actually play there or are just going out to an index fund or you know something similar or an ETF or something like that. Um and I'd say that actually like even then in that space there's very few of them who are like say trading stocks >> is the people who are trading stocks on something like you know like a she's platform or Robin Hood or something like are they the same is that the same type of trading that someone expects to be doing on Binance? Is that similar

type of idea? >> Yeah. >> Same same sort of thing same product. So >> what is that adoption like? What is the adoption on stocks trading? Do you know? >> Uh no, I don't actually know. But that's like our next addressable audience, right? Like people that are already comfortable investing in stocks and shares and then you know >> how to on board them into crypto and get them to add crypto to their >> to their portfolio. >> Um it's quite interesting actually. I think you tend to think crypto like traders up all hours like in the weeds on crypto Twitter like trading in and out coins the whole time >> but a lot of our research and you know just chatting to people um >>

people's behavior is a lot closer to like long-term >> buying and holding I forgot the term for that in crypto hodling >> hold on for dear life is kind of what it stands for but yeah most people take that that long-term approach >> yeah I mean that's kind of my approach approach to for any sort of investments like anything any specific companies I've been like early investor in or anything like it's just like just hold on to it like I'm not here to quickly turn it around. So the one thing with crypto um the only reason I haven't gone into it and maybe you can explain to me why I'm silly for doing this is that uh I actually just couldn't be bothered figuring it

out. Like I always thought that there's something more. I needed some wallet. I needed all sort of stuff. Like whereas like putting my money into um an ETF like is real easy. I can just do it through my bank. Like I don't have to do too much. I can just go click in some buttons and buy the thing I want. Why is that? Why am I silly there? Like why I've never bought crypto yet. I've invested in lots of different things. >> Yeah. >> Why am I right in saying that? Like is it more complicated or is it actually not? It's not. Is it super easy? >> Yeah. Well, it's it's like you're very familiar with like investing companies, starting companies, and you know the

the approach you take to understand the business, understand the business model, understand whether or not it's a good investment. Like that fundamentally is the same approach you should take to crypto. Like what is like the white paper of this coin, like what is it trying to achieve? Um say Bitcoin is more like digital gold. It just kind of sits there. There's only ever going to be 21 made. there's a schedule of when it's going to be released. Um it's, you know, pretty solid. Um not going to change. And so for a lot of people, that's like the fundamental like investment thesis. Yeah. >> Ethereum, um >> you know, they said it's the world's computer like you can develop smart contracts and there's a bit more

functionality. >> Yeah. >> Um >> now whether you want to go down the rabbit hole and learn what all that functionality is is kind of up to you. Um, but you can just take, you know, a very >> simple approach to just understanding the fundamentals of the coin and whether or not you want to you believe in it as like long-term upside. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> what about just like physically buying it? Like that is also a thing for me like it's just a there's more hurdles rather than just like in my banking app. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Like once I've found the coin I want to buy, is there more barriers? Am I wrong in thinking that there's more

barriers to overcome than just like >> I'd say it's pretty simple on Binance? Yeah, like you know set up um set up your account um you know as if you >> would on like a normal y >> share account. >> Okay. >> Do your identification and then deposit some funds and just buy any coin you want. >> And so you like have a cash balance and then just your coins b like coins and then the balance on so it's not like >> and that that there. So this thing I hear about like I need my wallet that's just my Binance account. >> Yeah. So Binance is a centralized exchange. You can You can just buy crypto there and keep it there forever. And we have,

you know, >> millions, hundreds of millions of users worldwide that are doing that. >> Um, you can also, you know, set up your own wallet, cold wallet. It can get very like technical, but I Yeah, I' >> I'd start simple. >> Start simple. >> Yeah. >> It's a sign. Okay. >> And then, you know, in the future, like we're already seeing the US, it's um, >> you know, you can potentially buy it through ETFs. Yeah. >> And Yeah. >> Buy that way. Yeah. Okay. interesting. Anyway, that was a side note. That was just me um wanting to know for myself. You talked a little bit about but growing through community and creators and we talked a little bit off um off camera about it as

well, but I'm really interested in this and the what you guys have done to grow quite a big presence in your world with I mean we talked about Cristiano Ronaldo huge celebrity probably one of the biggest celebrities in the world. Yeah. Um but like tell me about that journey like why use creators and famous people and you know um to grow it as opposed to like uh well it's not opposed to actually it's what a lot of people have done like why take that approach though why go after the big names as big as Cristiano Ronaldo which um like you said of Gamry you probably can't tell me how much but it was probably a shitload of money um but then also all the other

creators like tell me that approach like what was what's the thinking behind it all >> so Binance like historically It's been very community focused and it got to like world number one exchange by focusing on low fees, security and just like a really great product. >> Um, but also listening intently to the community and understanding what the community wanted out of an exchange >> um and being very reactive and building the products and services to >> Yeah. >> to meet them where they're at. >> Cool. >> And so for us, we see creators as an extension of that. >> Yeah. um in a in an industry that's like very nent and technical and probably didn't have the best rep in the past. >> Yeah. >>

It's really important for us to help educate and build trust with the community. >> Yeah. >> And creators are, you know, >> the the new form of like media. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, we're seeing less people trust traditional media. um and they're they're getting most of their news from social socials and you know the the accounts they follow are the people they trust. Yeah. >> Um to give them that information and by partnering with people that have a really authentic engaged audience >> um we're able to >> to help educate and build that trust for for what is a very still new industry. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's that's kind of the approach we've been taking. So it started very organically.

Yeah. Obviously, as we've grown, um, we've had the opportunity to partner with like some of the biggest names in in sport. Yeah. >> Um, if not, yeah. Like the biggest >> um, which is awesome. But, >> you know, for us it's >> it's creators of like all levels really. Um, you know, we uh we partnered with >> uh an awesome kid here in in Oakland, Zashan Bari, and he he runs Barry's Pizzas. So, for Bitcoin Pizza Day, we did a collaboration with him. >> Love it. And uh yeah, he had like Bitcoin pepperonis on the pizzas. We gave out like 400 pizzas in tech week. And it's just, >> you know, he has got such an engaged >> passionate following and he is so passionate

about what he does. It's just awesome. Like >> you feed off that energy. >> Yeah. >> Um especially for >> for someone like me, like >> I don't want to age myself, but you know, when I was at uni, like Facebook had only just come out. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. and and now you're seeing like these young kids that have grown up with like socials and so like native >> um on camera making content like launching businesses uh and it it's just awesome partnering with them like it gets such a buzz from it and like we learned so much right me personally >> um just like how they approach it and >> and they're just so native. >> Yeah. >> To >> Oh,

I mean it's half my team here like the young guys in the team. So like our team is like half old advertising guys and then half creators and the creators are just um like it's just crazy how simple it is. Like just the other day a good example is like we had a long table. We had a farewell dinner for one of the staffs. Long table maybe 20 people on it. Uh one of the millennials in the team sitting on one end of it. She turns around like someone's like oh take a photo of everyone. She's turning around. She's sitting there trying to take this photo. Here's my phone here. So she's like this trying to do this. >> Oh yeah. And on the other

end is Joanie, who's like 25. She's like, "Put your phone down." Turns around. She turns around. She's got her phone like this and just nails it. First time, perfect photo. And Liby's like, "I've never felt so old in my life until this moment right here." And like, let me not even that old. She's like 30. But, you know, um just how simple and native they are to understanding like one how cameras like how to just utilize the technology that they got and then post and do the things. So, trust me, I feel old every day in this office. Um, you said something there about like they they've got this energy that you watch them do it, they're native. What's Binance's approach to briefing these creators?

Like, how do you brief them in? Is it just like, you know, I've seen a lot of briefs for creators come in before and they're like quite strict and structured. Um, and then on the other side of it, there's some brands who are just like, >> "Go for gold. You just can't do one, two, three." >> Yeah. Where where does Binance sit in that sit? probably in the latter, right? I think um when it comes to investing, there are obviously some like rules you have to follow about not giving out financial advice >> um >> and speculating and so there's some like guard rails and we share share those with any of our partners ahead of time. It's just like, you know, >> you've got

the freedom to do what you do best um and you know, we're partnering with you because we love what you do. >> Yeah. >> Um but just avoid >> Yeah. >> this this and that. Um but yeah, it's the each conversation is different. >> Yeah. >> And we're kind of led by by the partner. >> Yeah. >> Um we really love it when people are passionate about obviously what they're doing but have a really strong interest in crypto. I think it's really important. >> Um because you know at the end of the day we want to help educate and >> increase awareness and so if they're >> if they're just like doing a brand deal or no interest in in the underlying like service or

don't use it themselves. Yeah. >> It doesn't really click. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, we're really passionate about partnering people that >> Yeah. >> are into it. >> Yeah. So, giving them that freedom because they know their audience best, >> um, they're going to make the best content, but as long as they're not doing the things that, well, you just can't do. >> Y, >> you're actually just wanting them to talk with their community about why they like a certain thing or how they're maybe using it themselves and then you see that getting the best results. >> Yeah. >> That's it, right? Because >> adoption is going to come >> well in different ways, right? And I used to have this conversation with my team

um like three years ago. >> The thing that got the first million people Yeah. in like Australia, New Zealand's crypto is going to be very different to the thing that gets like the next 10 million. >> Yeah. >> And so when we're partnering with creators, um >> we really encourage them to share like their journey. Cool. >> Because everyone's at like a different stage. >> You know, I've been in the industry three years, but I don't know everything about crypto. There's stuff like coming out all the time. I'm learning every day. Yeah. Um, but just people sharing where they're at in their journey. I think it's really helpful for >> for people following them because it's like, oh, you don't need to be like subject

matter expert in XY Z coins. >> Um, >> but I trust this person and they're learning and I'm learning with them. Like for example, we're doing a partnership with Jack Robinson. Oh yeah. >> The surfer. So he came second in the Olympics last year. Um, really cool guy. And he um he's quite open like he doesn't know much but he's really keen to learn. Cool. >> Um, and his wife's actually really into it. So, as a like as a couple together, they're like navigating, >> you know, crypto investing um together, which is like awesome. >> Yeah. >> Um, he's really cool to work with and yeah, you know, traveling the world um different countries. He's seeing crypto adoption. He's really interested to to kind of

learn more. >> Um, but again, you know, just encouraging him to kind of share his story. You know, he's not like an expert and he'll admit he's not an expert himself. >> Yeah. Um but yeah, they're they're the kind of partnerships that we've seen do particularly well. >> Yeah. Nice. Um interesting. Like why I mean I kind of know why, but can you explain a little bit more like the sports people? Like why are they a good partnership for a finance or for Binance? >> Like it's Yeah, it's interesting. >> Sports. Yeah. I like I'm I'm passion I love sports like um Yeah, I used to work for a sports betting uh company back in back in London. um be surrounded by sports, but there's

just there's something to sports, right? There's there's a reason why so many brands kind of partner um with sports teams and and different, you know, I have conversations with >> different leagues, clubs, individuals. >> Um there's something there's the there's the as there's the aspirational nature like everyone's striving to achieve something in sport. >> Uh and I think there's a lot of crossover with you know, the aspirational um nature of of crypto and yeah and that like financial freedom that you know potentially >> get through through investing in in the space. >> Um >> but yeah, it's an interesting one like different different brands have taken different different approaches like some of our uh competitors on the exchange side have really like lent into certain

sports over others. >> Um at a local level uh for for us we're >> we're really interested in partnering with the individuals. Y >> um some of our competitors, you know, sponsoring teams and the like, but I think the >> and especially for me personally, like >> I find it super interesting when you're following someone. >> Yeah. >> And hearing their story and it's like a lot more authentic >> and and also from a brand perspective like you get so much more like access and like it's just a conversation, you know? you know, we'll jump on a call with with Jack, for example. Yeah. And just like, you know, brainstorm stuff and, you know, he's like super open to it and flexible and he's got

some of his own ideas and what he wants to do is, yeah, if you're partnering with like a team, you know, those conversations involve a lot more stakeholders. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking the same thing and actually it was why I asked is because I think I personally would also I also think sports stars are great. Like that wasn't a criticism of David. I actually think it's great. I actually think uh supporting or sponsoring a whole team is a lot more uh risky maybe as an advertising platform. I don't I don't think it is bad. I think if you do it right, you can do it really well. One of our clients, One New Zealand sponsors the Warriors and they've made the most of

that sponsorship and those two, the Warriors and One New Zealand go hand in hand and people think of them together. Yeah. >> And to be fair, it's been good for us because we run this run in Zed Social. So, um, being able to leverage the Warriors to grow the social issu, you know, there's plenty of other, uh, there's actually plenty of other sponsorship sponsors of the Warriors >> and no one none of them get associated with the Warriors as the one in Zed do. There's heaps of them, like at least a dozen more that sponsor the Warriors, but they would never be considered the sponsor. And it's kind of also even same when I think New Zealand sport teams uh with the All Blacks. Although

there's like they'll have this main sponsor on their shirt, everyone knows it's the Adidas is the main sponsor of the All Blacks and then kind of all the rest just pay all this money. I mean don't stop paying the money because pay for the sports teams. I get it. There is still a commercial reason for it. I get it. But I think you probably over you're paying a premium. >> Yeah. for that piece. Whereas actually like um if I was to sponsor the organization and say like Artisia who's got a great presence on socials and his audience love him and listen to anything he says >> there probably a way like you're saying with uh Jack is Jack. >> Yeah. Um >> there's a way

closer connection to the audience than you are going to get at a team level. Right. So I actually think that's really clever and I think that for other people like or brands listening I don't think there's enough here in New Zealand. I don't know what it's like in Australia as much, but I don't think there's as much in New Zealand at that personal level. Yeah. To the same level. Like >> I would rather pay the same amount almost for the top individual than a team, you know, like h maybe not. But you know what I mean? Like I think you're paying a premium for the team but not getting the same >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> same response back. Anyway, I'm going on a tangent.

Um okay. So you've got these creators that you're paying, you're letting them do their thing, you you're doing the sports stars and whatnot. Um if you like of a budget of marketing you don't have to tell me obviously dollar figures but as a percentage roughly even if it's ballpark how much goes into that space compared to other advertising or other marketing do you know roughly >> for us locally um it's an increasing amount I'd say >> probably like 25 to 30%. >> Yeah. Okay. Quite big. >> Yeah I imagine that's going to that's definitely going to increase. Um, not least because as I mentioned before, like >> traditional media, >> well, crypto is new, right? And it's a disruptor. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and >>

and traditional media hasn't necessarily always been a fan of crypto. >> Uh, and so it's harder to get positive news stories out there through some traditional media outlets sometimes. And there's a lot of like, you know, positive news stories to kind of share about about crypto and adoption. Um and so rather so we definitely work with traditional media outlets >> but I think at a global level we're starting to understand that actually having a direct relationship with our followers and you know >> creators through socials >> can have more impact and >> can get the stories out >> yeah okay >> quicker and more effectively y >> and so I think we'll see some of our traditional PR PR budgets start to be channeled into

>> creative partnerships. >> Yeah. Interesting. >> Which, yeah, I think is super interesting. Um, >> is PR like traditional PR stuff still quite a large percentage of spend too? >> Yeah. >> I mean, you don't have to give the numbers, but it's still quite a big portion of it. >> Yeah. But that will start reallocated. is do you what about like digital marketing advertising and Google and Meta and whatnot and pushing those spends like does that is that the biggest budget or how does that play into can you advertise very well in that space as Binance? Yeah, like traditional like paid advertising. We can do uh some platforms are more open than others. Meta is pretty open. Google less so, but I think that's starting

to change. Um you know that was definitely the case >> in my previous industries as well like gaming. Um Google was like slower to slower to open up. >> Uh but that we're seeing it now starting to do more more in that space. So yeah, paid ads still the biggest portion of spend. >> Yeah. still still a large large proportion. But I think >> again we're trying to see how we can use creators news creators content in our paid ads >> because I think a lot of our >> like paid ads a lot of like investing >> advertising is kind of sy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and we're trying to like >> figure out and you know it's constant challenge for my team like

to test different creatives all the time see what's working. Um but yeah that like creator le creative yeah I think um we started using more of that in our in our paid ads and seeing absolutely better returns >> that's been like I mean that's the reason for like the success that we've had as a business has like gone rather like all the paid agencies who have been uh most of their success has come from the fact that like you really could just put in a dollar and get $2 out for a long time has started to dwindle as most people know your uh cost position is not as good as it used to be and all the different things. And then now creative is sort

of setting >> is a differentiator. But um of like going how do we create which you guys have done quite well is like how do you create a um an audience first in an ecosystem of like content and whatever that performs great either organically or in collaboration with creative partners. And then if it works well there that's obviously the creative that you're going to put money behind. >> Yep. >> Right. because we already know it's good. I just put in front of more people. >> Um, and that so many businesses still aren't thinking that way. >> Maybe when they've got bigger budgets, they start to just do everything. So, they are doing it just by default. But how much of your um ad creative is

actually coming from that organic space? Do or are do you still have like a big portion of creative that's just like specifically made to run ads? >> Yeah. And is that just something you're trying to shift more? Is that the goal? >> Yeah, 100%. So in the in the organic content that we're seeing perform particularly well, we want to take that push spend behind it. Um and we've done that with you work with another partner in Australia called Bonsie Gomez. >> Okay? >> You know, he's got like two million followers on Tik Tok, about 600K on Instagram, >> and um >> and it's like win-win, right? Like the creative we we're like, "Oh, Font, this this creative is working really well. Can we run it

in our paid ads?" and he's like super supportive because >> it pushes like his brand out there >> and gets spend behind him and increases his like reach. >> So yeah, we found it's like mutually beneficial for both the creators and and us. Yeah. >> Um and that's like an awesome way like Yeah. That's like when the partnership's winning for both. That's >> Oh, absolutely. I've I've tried to say that to creators plenty like if a brand's going to go and put 100k behind your piece of content, like do you know how many views that is? Like you know how much that pushes you out? And also like because there's often like a lot of talent agents with having to say like your usage fees

are just too high here. Like these guys are getting just as much benefit of being pushed >> as the brand is by pushing them. Like like yeah usage fees I get it. I get it. People going to make money. I get it. but they're extortionate fees that are actually limiting the overall growth of your talent and also um that they're just not going to get the money anyway because the brand's just going to say, "Oh, well, we'll go to the next creator." >> Yeah. >> Do us a better deal. Like, and some of the usage rates were pretty extreme like some of the stuff that I've seen come through. When you think about that, like are you say is it Fona? Are you paying is

it purely mutually beneficial where he's just like getting paid for the content and then you guys are pushing it and he's just getting the benefit of that or do you have usage fees and stuff as well or they just is it all different? I mean you don't have to speak to Fonzi in particular but is that just something you negotiate with each particular talent? >> Yeah, it's on like a case by case basis. Um we've actually had quite a longterm partnership with Fonzi going back >> four years maybe. >> Um you know he's traveled the world. He's in Bhutan actually uh a couple of months ago with our CEO because we just did a >> a big Binance pay integration with Bhutan tourism board so

he can pay with crypto in >> good >> in any outlet in Bhutan and yeah he went over there and was documenting like his journey paying with Binance and yeah so he's awesome he's we love working with him he's like so down to earth like >> that's proper partnership >> yeah yeah and um and so yeah with him like you know we've come to an agreement where he's like more than happy for us to kind of push out his his stuff and test it on ads. >> Yeah. >> Which is which is awesome. And also on different platforms, right? Like he um I was having a conversation with him >> last week. He's obviously got like >> he gets short form video. He's like nailed

the street interview, his like interview style. >> Yeah. >> Um but he doesn't do anything on YouTube. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And so, you know, I was like, Bonzi, we're um we're seeing some success from YouTube shorts. >> Yeah. >> Um especially with the creative content with a few of the creators working with. And we're like, do you mind if we push this out? on shorts and he was like, "Yeah, go for it." >> Yeah. >> He's like, "It's not something I've necessarily >> spent too much time on, but he was happy for us to kind of kind of use it." So, yeah, it's like >> I think having that open dialogue with creators is really important. Um, because like at the end of the

day, they're all businesses and they're all like >> different like >> we work with some agencies, but much prefer like the direct relationship. >> Um, and >> yeah, you can just have those conversations and turn around things like super quick. Yeah. >> Um, which is awesome. >> Yeah, I do think that um I mean they they hate it when I say this probably, but the talent agencies I I do think the model hasn't shifted fast enough in especially New Zealand, Australia. I think that there's a lot of model talent agent models. I mean it's completely different in the US because their whole structure is different in the US but in say UK and whatnot it's uh they're adapted to this new world so much faster

than what New Zealand Australia and still in New Zealand like we we struggle as an agency because we don't do talent management but we'll often need talent for brands and you get stuck at like you find the talent then you get stuck at the talent agent just going no we're not going to do that deal because it doesn't meet this thing that we need to do and it's like over the course of year it's quarter of a million dollars like whatever you got a problem with >> like that creator didn't make that last year. Like I don't understand. Do the deal. You know, do the deal. Your creator wants it. Everyone wants it. The brand wants it. >> But the agencies are struggling to like

fit it inside their box which is uh kind of interesting. So tell me for other brands listening like how do you get that direct relationship? How did that work? Is it just you forged over time or do you just um seeking out people who maybe aren't necessarily managed? Like how do you find them? Yeah, that's a great question. Like, you know, as marketers, >> we obviously consume like a lot of content ourselves. Yeah. Um, and keep on top of >> like the content that's kind of performing well. >> And so, more often than not, we'll just like slide in someone's DMs. >> Yeah. >> And strike up conversation >> and um, you know, sometimes they're like, "Oh, yeah, reach out to >> my manager, this

agency." But more often than not, they're happy to like >> Yeah. >> you know, >> start something. Yeah. >> Um, which is cool especially like >> I guess historically we were very much focused on Twitter or X. That's where a lot of like crypto lives. Um, but as we grow and as you know like I said >> when you're trying to on board the next billion like >> those people aren't on crypto Twitter. >> No. >> So it's like meeting those audiences and meeting those people where they they are. >> Yeah. Um, and so we probably starting to tap up more like lifestyle content and you know like Barry as an example, he's got his own business in pizzas. Jack's a surfer, Bonsie's like straight

interviewer, like >> they're all doing very different things, but like you know, >> not overlapping with like your traditional crypto audience. Yeah. >> And so yeah, people are people are open to it when we slide into their their DMs um to at least have a conversation. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then on that then um there's a lot of like crypto in that whole world gets a lot of stick for being you know a little bit scammy a little bit dodgy especially like the NFT craze that happened in 2020 to 2022. A lot of people got burned. A lot of people heard about crazy stuff. Are you ever worried about these creators like >> like are their brands getting damaged by being part of it?

Like is there any concern there? Like how does that how do you protect them from the general public's thought that maybe it's a scam or whatever? Like how does that world play into how do you guys think about it? Like that's a big question, but like how do you think about this problem? >> Yeah, >> because it still is right a little bit >> that some people still look at crypto as >> like I said, crypto historically has had like a really bad bad rep. And I think um like you mentioned that that run up in 2020 2021 NFT craz in 2022 >> Yeah. um was huge and it brought on board like a whole bunch of new people and I'm sure you've got mates

and yeah who just like jumping into crypto for the first time then >> and um and then the market obviously went down after that and a lot of people >> did get burnt or you know we left like crypto which wasn't worth as much and so again kind of feeds into the negative perception the volatility >> um and even now actually we're not seeing like you know I mentioned Bitcoin hit alltime high >> overnight. Yeah. >> Uh it's the highest it's ever been. >> Yeah. >> But Google search trends for crypto is still like down >> versus that period in 2021, 2022. >> Yeah. >> Um because, you know, a lot of people >> did get hurt. >> Yeah. >> And so, yeah, we we

think about it a lot. Um and we, you know, trying to not trying to fix crypto's reputation, but it's definitely something, you know, I think about. And so when it comes to partnering with creators, you want to make sure, like I said, that they're into it. Yeah. >> And that they get it. Yeah. >> And that they understand it because you don't want to be >> forcing someone to say something that they're not >> Yeah. >> fully comfortable. >> Yeah. >> Um with so like if they do get it, if they do have um like an investment in crypto, >> then you know it's two-way process. They're going to do their due diligence like find out who Binance are um whether or not they want

to partner with us. you know, we'll do our due diligence and see kind of what they promoted before and >> see how they >> talk about brands in their content. >> Yeah. >> Um >> yeah, it's >> it's a conversation you kind of have to have um >> with uh with people individually. >> Yeah, it's a difficult one. Yeah, it's a difficult one, but I think you're right. Like it's a case by case, slow and steady. >> I I'm I actually think crypto is awesome. I just haven't invested because honestly lazy. >> You got so much of the stuff on the >> Oh, so much other stuff. I'm putting so much money into everything else. But I actually think it's awesome. I think more people

uh I think like everything in investment, it's all about diversification and that if you put all your money into um crypto, you're probably not doing the right thing. Um but same as if you put all your money into um particular stocks or just property or just whatever or cash, you know, like spread your risk and put it everywhere for proper good long-term investment. I think there's people who can definitely trade, but that's not everyone. And that's probably not most people. No. But there are people who can like hold certain coins um buy it for the long term, put some money in that, let it like like you talk about Bitcoin being the gold, just holding some gold for a long period of time, store your

wealth. >> For creators, as we start to wrap this conversation up, like for creators listening who are like, I I would love to one, I'm really into it or I'm starting my journey, I'm really passionate, like how would they talk to a brand like yourself to show the value that they could offer you? Like if someone's listening and going, "Man, I'd love to collab with these guys and do something." Like what could they do to show to you we're worthwhile? Like what's what's the pitch? How do they pitch to you? >> Um our DMs are always open, right? So follow us on Insta, >> Twitter, and just slide in. If you've got an idea, like we're we're all like we, like I said, really keen

to partner with young >> hung not necessarily young, but ambitious. >> I was gonna say, so I'm out. Okay. Yeah. um creators who are like just full of energy and passionate about what they're doing. Uh because I think there's like so many more avenues to kind of explore >> um >> and we're open for it, right? Like you know we're the world's largest exchange by volume users, but like locally we're we're still kind of startup mentality and still kind of scrappy. >> Yeah. >> Um and so yeah, we're we're keen to kind of have that conversation. Cool. and like more long-term like I'm really bullish like obviously bullish crypto in the industry but bullish like creators. Yeah. Um you know when I as mentioned when

I was at uni well I've ended up working for some amazing companies in companies that have like >> reframed um how we consume media. Tik Tok for example. Yeah. >> Um but you know Tik Tok doesn't produce any of its own content. Like everything on there is made by someone a creator. >> Yeah. whether they got one follower or you know 50 million. >> Yeah. >> And right now like it's really hard for creators to monetize. I know we talked about agencies and being gatekeepers and >> the the business model of the internet is generally advertising. >> Um but with web 3, I'm really bullish on creators owning their own content. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And that digital ownership meaning that they can monetize it

more effectively. >> Yeah. And I think there's so much more to be built out in that space. Yeah. Which re rework reframes like the business model. Yeah. >> And gives them more like ownership and and actually acrew the value from the creations that they're making. >> Um so yeah, >> super bullish on that. It' be interesting to see how it plays out. Um but yeah, >> it's a tough one. I I know what you're saying and I think I agree. I agree with you. Um how it plays out will be interesting. and what are the forces that play that >> which way it goes and whatnot. I think that you're right that the creators >> they they're gaining more power as creators because they're no

longer limited to one platform either. Like their content is now working across all platforms. >> Yeah. >> So platforms are fighting to keep creators and whatnot. So I think creators are probably winning a lot of that battle at the moment >> purely out of the fact that the platforms are had to compete. Yeah. you know, and so they get they're they're actually the ones winning from it all. Um, so I'm I'm I'm keen to see how it plays out, too. I think I think you're probably right in the long term, but it's going to take a long time. There's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built, which is probably a lot of it. Hey, uh, we're running out of time, but that was

awesome. Thank you so much. A good insight into some stuff that I had no clue about. Uh, and super cool to see a brand in a business, especially like, you know, you talk about sort of startup mentality. It might have been like eight years now that you've been around, but that's kind of takes 10 years to make a good business, right? Yeah. um that you I don't see a lot of businesses um talk as openly and as positively around the creator community as what you have and you know the brief that you guys sent through and stuff before this thing like just that's so cool like I don't see a lot of it trust me like we deal with so many businesses trying to get

them to do more of this stuff this UGC or creator generated content is really tough um and so well done man awesome work >> thanks for having me >> cool thanks a pleasure >> yeah cheers All right, done. Thank you. That was awesome. Thank you.